Resirc vs no resirc... what gives

[jason the filter freak]

I was looking at top skimmers. SCW, deltec, elso, bubble king, bubble master, octopus, etc and noticed that some are resircing but some of the most expensive ones aren't. What gives?

[treesprite]

I was looking at top skimmers. SCW, deltec, elso, bubble king, bubble master, octopus, etc and noticed that some are resircing but some of the most expensive ones aren't. What gives?

I would just like to know what the difference is.

[SeanCallan]

I would just like to know what the difference is.

 

Recirculating Skimmers have additional pumps that operate somewhat like closed loops.

 

The recirculating pumps are used to generate a greater amount of bubbles and turbulence. In some cases they may be used to keep the water in the skimmer for longer periods to ensure maximum protein is extracted.

 

Nicer skimmers lack the recirculating pumps for a couple of reason IMHO: 1) recirculating pumps add additional noise and 2) the high end skimmers have high quality pumps and are less likely to need a recirculating.

[treesprite]

I see, thanks for the info. "Re-circulating" made me think somehow that the water went through the skimmer and then re-circulated back through it again... I guess that would be kind of like having 2 skimmers.

[lanman]

From what I can tell - it's all based on 'contact time' with the water. Recirculating water that already has bubbles through your mesh wheel or pin wheel may also break up bubbles into even smaller bubbles. Which increases total bubble surface area, and therefore contact with the water.

 

I have an 'idea' for a very simple skimmer that I'm going to try as soon as I can get parts together. It will NOT be recirculating. If it works - I'll post a DIY on how to make a skimmer for $50 or so. If it works REALLY well - I won't post anything - I'll PM Kengar (the local patent attorney).

 

bob

[jason the filter freak]

From what I can tell - it's all based on 'contact time' with the water. Recirculating water that already has bubbles through your mesh wheel or pin wheel may also break up bubbles into even smaller bubbles. Which increases total bubble surface area, and therefore contact with the water.

 

I have an 'idea' for a very simple skimmer that I'm going to try as soon as I can get parts together. It will NOT be recirculating. If it works - I'll post a DIY on how to make a skimmer for $50 or so. If it works REALLY well - I won't post anything - I'll PM Kengar (the local patent attorney).

 

bob

 

You and me bob you and me.

[davelin315]

Recirculating means that it recirculates the water and filters it more than one time (think of it like prewashing and adding an extra rinse cycle when washing your clothes). A traditional skimmer will pull water from outside the skimmer directly through the pump and into the skimmer body. From there, it makes its way out of the skimmer. In a recirculating model, you feed the skimmer from an outside source (via gravity or a feed pump) and then the water gets skimmed a few times before making its way out of the skimmer. The bubbles typically are not chopped up again and again as if you look at a recirculating skimmer, it doesn't pull water from the bubble column, but rather from the bottom where there are fewer bubbles. By allowing too many bubbles to enter the pump you can decrease the efficiency - kind of like when too much air enters a venturi and it simply runs dry instead of producing bubbles. You can also damage some pumps by allowing too much air into them.

 

Also, I believe it depends on the pump that you use when determining whether it's going to be recirculating or not. If the pump is already very efficient, some manufacturers don't feel the need to recirculate it. Some also won't necessarily pull out the gunk any better on a second pass than a first.

[jason the filter freak]

Some also won't necessarily pull out the gunk any better on a second pass than a first.

 

This is why i was thinking the higher end ones don't.

[zygote2k]

For what it's worth, Anthony Calfo mentions in his book, "Coral Propagation", that a 200 dollar skimmer is all that's required for most everyones' needs.

[jason the filter freak]

For what it's worth, Anthony Calfo mentions in his book, "Coral Propagation", that a 200 dollar skimmer is all that's required for most everyones' needs.

 

Funny thats exactly what I paid for my GSA shorty

[davelin315]

I wouldn't say that the higher end ones don't recirculate. Deltec has recirculating skimmers and I would consider them to be high end. Bubble Kings might not be recirculating with their Red Dragon pumps, but for double the price of the competition (or more) I also expect it to make me breakfast in bed and skim the house as well.

 

Also, as far as the quote of Calfo, I don't disagree with that, but if you look at our club and the things that people do with their systems, I would say that the majority of us are outside of the majority of reef keepers.

[Stephen]

For what it's worth, Anthony Calfo mentions in his book, "Coral Propagation", that a 200 dollar skimmer is all that's required for most everyones' needs.

 

That's funny. I talked to a guy last night from Charlottesville that's growing corals in a greenhouse and his garage to sell wholesale and every 5 minutes or so he'd mention how Anthony Calfo recommended and helped him set up his massive amount of Deltec equipment.

[zygote2k]

That's funny. I talked to a guy last night from Charlottesville that's growing corals in a greenhouse and his garage to sell wholesale and every 5 minutes or so he'd mention how Anthony Calfo recommended and helped him set up his massive amount of Deltec equipment.

I believe the quote was in reference to most home systems, not a commercial application.

[SeanCallan]

I believe the quote was in reference to most home systems, not a commercial application.

 

So home systems should be less equipped and prepared in comparison to commercial systems?

 

I don't know who would want that, I want a system that matches or surpasses the commercial systems so my corals will not only continue to grow but flourish. If quality skimmers are beneficial to a commercial system how are they not for a personal/home setup?

Edited November 24, 2008 by SeanCallan

[jason the filter freak]

So home systems should be less equipped and prepared in comparison to commercial systems?

 

I don't know who would want that, I want a system that matches or surpasses the commercial systems so my corals will not only continue to grow but flourish. If quality skimmers are beneficial to a commercial system how are they not for a personal/home setup?

 

I think we're talking more in terms of most commercial systems are a couple thousand gallons at least. The one I'm working on now is is somewhere in the 4000 gallon range... and I bet the skimmer running the show is less than some of the higher end deltecs, bubble kings, bubble masters etc.

 

I'd say the average home aquarium is in the 40-75 gallon range, (mind you a large number of people in this club far surpass "average"), and there for a $200 skimmer would be about right. With del tec and the like you're paying for CNC machined parts, high grade cell cast acrylic, special features like "odor reducers", remote fill containers, air intake silencers, THE BRAND NAME. While yes deltec skimmers will outperform most and is made of "higher quality parts". I'll put my Turbo Floater against any Deltec in the same price range would put money on the Turbofloater on outperforming said Deltec hands down

[SeanCallan]

I think we're talking more in terms of most commercial systems are a couple thousand gallons at least. The one I'm working on now is is somewhere in the 4000 gallon range... and I bet the skimmer running the show is less than some of the higher end deltecs, bubble kings, bubble masters etc.

 

I'd say the average home aquarium is in the 40-75 gallon range, (mind you a large number of people in this club far surpass "average"), and there for a $200 skimmer would be about right. With del tec and the like you're paying for CNC machined parts, high grade cell cast acrylic, special features like "odor reducers", remote fill containers, air intake silencers, THE BRAND NAME. While yes deltec skimmers will outperform most and is made of "higher quality parts". I'll put my Turbo Floater against any Deltec in the same price range would put money on the Turbofloater on outperforming said Deltec hands down

 

So you're working on a commercial system in which you don't know the gallons and you have to bet on the equipment it's using?

 

Sure, commercial systems are obviously bigger, other wise they wouldn't be much of a commercial business. But those commercial systems also have commercial sized skimmers on them. Commercial business that have money on the line aren't going to trust their stock to a $100 Turboflotor, they invest in a piece of equipment that has a reputation for performance and quality. Why would you do anything less in your own tank?

 

I know what you're talking about and that's great, but I think you fail to realize that "THE BRAND NAME" phenomenon doesn't occur from simply having a brand name, people buy based on brand name because they know that a particular brand out performs and is better quality. People don't buy Porches just because they're pretty, they know the brand name and they know it's known to perform and won't put out a crappy product. They know that at the end of the day their car will out perform yours.

 

Deltec, BK, and the like have "THE BRAND NAME" because they work. You don't see many, if any, high end nice systems running cheap equipment. You can buy a car for $100 bucks to get you from point A to point B, but if you had spent a little more you'd likely have less engine problems, less oil and fuel burn, and you'd save yourself a lot trouble down the road.

 

I am still amazed that people in this hobby will spend small fortunes on livestock and then be cheap on the equipment and things used to sustain a tank.

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Edited November 24, 2008 by SeanCallan

[jason the filter freak]

Why would you do anything less in your own tank?

 

Because you can build a better cheaper one.

 

 

 

No fancy acrylic body there, no brand name label there, schedule 40 PVC, heck the air intake is CPVC, but I consistently see a 5 gallon bucket of skimmate from the unit .

Edited November 24, 2008 by jason the filter freak

[SeanCallan]

Because you can build a better cheaper one.

 

 

 

No fancy acrylic body there, no brand name label there, schedule 40 PVC, heck the air intake is CPVC, but I consistently see a 5 gallon bucket of skimmate from the unit .

 

And I assure you that if I rapidly pumped air into a cylinder attached to an enormous tank, I could easily skim something off of it especially if I was skimming wet. But again, if I'm going to try and build a race car, I don't start with an old civic.

 

Any skimmer you build that uses the basics will skim something out of the water. But how much are you NOT skimming?

 

Sure maybe you get 5 gallons of wet skimmage from the unit, but how many gallons of waste just made it back into your tank because your skimmer isn't nearly as efficient as a BK or Deltec? Also, how much smaller would a BK or Deltec be for that tank? Bigger isn't always better.

 

Unless you're feeding your tank 5 gallons or more a day, then maybe skimming that much should be a reminder that the skimmer isn't do a good job the first dozen times the water has to go through it.

 

You can ghetto rig ANYTHING and it will likely work. I can build a tank for $50 bucks, fill it with tap water, build a skimmer out of some discarded PVC pipes and call it a day. Sure that's great fun, but I wouldn't stick a $100 frag on there.

Edited November 24, 2008 by SeanCallan

[jason the filter freak]

And I assure you that if I rapidly pumped air into a cylinder attached to an enormous tank, I could easily skim something off of it especially if I was skimming wet. But again, if I'm going to try and build a race car, I don't start with an old civic.

 

Any skimmer you build that uses the basics will skim something out of the water. But how much are you NOT skimming?

 

Sure maybe you get 5 gallons of wet skimmage from the unit, but how many gallons of waste just made it back into your tank because your skimmer isn't nearly as efficient as a BK or Deltec? Also, how much smaller would a BK or Deltec be for that tank? Bigger isn't always better.

 

Unless you're feeding your tank 5 gallons or more a day, then maybe skimming that much should be a reminder that the skimmer isn't do a good job the first dozen times the water has to go through it.

 

You can ghetto rig ANYTHING and it will likely work. I can build a tank for $50 bucks, fill it with tap water, build a skimmer out of some discarded PVC pipes and call it a day. Sure that's great fun, but I wouldn't stick a $100 frag on there.

 

What about the SPAZZ Volcano Skimmer,

. It's sure not a deltec, bubble king, or the like but it puts them to shame. And the fiberglass skimmer is rather efficent and the skimmate is nice and creamy, efficeny isn't just about how well something works, but how well something works for the cost of the build, the power draw, and how much it can handle the job it is applied to.

[ctenophore]

And I assure you that if I rapidly pumped air into a cylinder attached to an enormous tank, I could easily skim something off of it especially if I was skimming wet. But again, if I'm going to try and build a race car, I don't start with an old civic.

 

Any skimmer you build that uses the basics will skim something out of the water. But how much are you NOT skimming?

 

Sure maybe you get 5 gallons of wet skimmage from the unit, but how many gallons of waste just made it back into your tank because your skimmer isn't nearly as efficient as a BK or Deltec? Also, how much smaller would a BK or Deltec be for that tank? Bigger isn't always better.

 

Unless you're feeding your tank 5 gallons or more a day, then maybe skimming that much should be a reminder that the skimmer isn't do a good job the first dozen times the water has to go through it.

 

You can ghetto rig ANYTHING and it will likely work. I can build a tank for $50 bucks, fill it with tap water, build a skimmer out of some discarded PVC pipes and call it a day. Sure that's great fun, but I wouldn't stick a $100 frag on there.

Man my ghetto skimmer is getting no love here. I guess I need to paint it Ferrari red and chrome the pump.

 

I have more than one $100 frag in this system (thanks Rik)

 

I can safely say this one is at least as efficient as a Deltec AP 1004. I have one of those in FL, we tested a short 36" version of the above skimmer using a Dart needlewheel against the 1004. The fiberglass skimmer pulled out more than the 1004 consistently over several weeks with less power consumption. As for this one, I know it pulls out enough skimmate (and it isn't wet) to keep a lot of big fat tangs happy and the sps colorful. Just because my old civic doesn't have $3000 racing stripes doesn't mean it can't perform

[Gatortailale]

It's all about air bubble contact time. With the big skimmer Jason showed, there is a lot of time for bubble contact in that tall chamber. I would expect it to work fairly well given the size of it. However, the average person doesn't have the space to install a skimmer that size. Thus, you then have to find an efficient skimmer for the space you have to devote to running one. Next, comes Jason's topic - recirculate or not. I think DaveLin's post summed that up fairly well so IMO no need for me to say more on that.

 

In the end there are so many variables that it's hard to say one way works better than another. Even it we take the excact same equipment but put it in different locations and under separate control, I bet we would get different results. Same thing goes for color of sps corals - I get a lot different color out of some corals that peeps I trade. Maybe it's equipment I use, maybe it's the trace elements I add, water quality, brand of RO/DI I use, bulbs, ballast (combo of the 2); you name it, results will differ to some extent. Heck, even the type/brand of foods, as well as oils on our skin, impacts skimmer performance.

 

Probably the biggest thing one can do to improve success is to timely care for their system and equipment. By that I mean that if you properly maintain your equipment and timely clean your skimmer ever few days (at least that is my method) to get max benefit from it, then you increase your chance to be more successful because your livestock should benefit from the improved water quality. If you aren't going to maintain your equipment, then a fancy expensive skimmer will work no better than a cheap one in the end.

 

I was willing to spend the money on a Deltec. I liked it's reputation, checked out its performance on a few systems in person, was excited to read about their customer service and their warranty; and you can't beat it for ease to clean the collection cup (simple 1/8 twist). While the becket injector skimmer I used in past worked well (aerofoamer), this time I didn't care to have a loud skimmer running in my house. It also had the old thumbscrews so a pain to clean. The T1000 floater, at least the one I used, was never consistent in it's production and required far to much tinkering to get it to work.

 

 

Good luck & happy reefing!

[zygote2k]

And I assure you that if I rapidly pumped air into a cylinder attached to an enormous tank, I could easily skim something off of it especially if I was skimming wet. But again, if I'm going to try and build a race car, I don't start with an old civic.

 

Any skimmer you build that uses the basics will skim something out of the water. But how much are you NOT skimming?

 

Sure maybe you get 5 gallons of wet skimmage from the unit, but how many gallons of waste just made it back into your tank because your skimmer isn't nearly as efficient as a BK or Deltec? Also, how much smaller would a BK or Deltec be for that tank? Bigger isn't always better.

 

Unless you're feeding your tank 5 gallons or more a day, then maybe skimming that much should be a reminder that the skimmer isn't do a good job the first dozen times the water has to go through it.

 

You can ghetto rig ANYTHING and it will likely work. I can build a tank for $50 bucks, fill it with tap water, build a skimmer out of some discarded PVC pipes and call it a day. Sure that's great fun, but I wouldn't stick a $100 frag on there.

Maybe some of us are just that good that we can turn that old Civic into something that can crush your Porsche.

Edited November 24, 2008 by zygote2k

[zygote2k]

I use an ASM G1X that's about $250 on one of my maintenance tanks. On another there is a Euro-Reef that cost in the $600 range. They are virtually identical in size and function. They both pull an equal amount out. When I set the next maintenance tank up, I'll use an ASM. Sure, it doesn't have laser cut edges or fancy designs routed into the top or use black ABS, but for the money and the efficiency it's the logical choice. This is a gadget driven hobby- some of the gadgets are good and some do the same thing for more money because they look prettier.

 

I'd like to see someone maybe set up a skimmer contest at the next WAMAS social. Set up several different skimmers on equal sized tanks, pour 2 beers into each tank and see what skimmer pulls more proteins out. At the HH Backer pet trade shows years ago, I had seen this exact contest. Apparently beer works well.

If anyone wants to do a demo, I have an Aqua-Medic Turboflotor T1000 available.

[davelin315]

I had a recirculating ASM G6 that didn't do nearly the job that the GSA Standard 12 does on my system - even minus one pump currently. I am not a fan of the ASMs after owning one. Not that it doesn't do a sufficient job, but it's not as effective as other skimmers. I think that ASM put out a cheap alternative that was fine for some systems, but it's not enough for my system as I run it. The GSA pulled out probably 8-10x the amount of skimmate as the ASM.

[SeanCallan]

Maybe some of us are just that good that we can turn that old Civic into something that can crush your Porsche.

 

I doubt that :D