I have a problem

[toastiireefs]

Sooo I cleaned out my entire tank, moved my fish, did a huge water change took params. . . and then after a few days my tank started fuming. . . and i thought it was just low on water and the pump over heated. . . sooo it stopped for a while. . . and then after a few more days the problem started again . . . annnd i realized that the popping/crackling sound-- was not water but was i think an "electrical leak" if that makes sense . . . .

 

but my tank was fuming from below and i am amazed the wood never caught fire and my house is still standing.. . . .

 

but i have NOOOO clue which of my wires are causing it. . .

and i dont know what is a safe way to figure that out..

 

well i turned off my entire tank and needless to say everything has died in it. . . (there was nothing but some snails and bristle worms in it anyway but still sad)

 

 

But i do not know what to do, now that i will truely have to COMPLETELY recycle. . .when my short cycle with already live rock was only a couple more weeks away. . . if it was not already stable. . .

 

 

but any advice? anyone to hire?

 

-thanks

sara

[Rascal]

Are the electrical components plugged into a GFCI outlet? If so, you can sometimes figure out the source of an electrical short (if that's what it is) by selectively plugging in each device until the GFCI trips.

[Hilary]

If you don't have a GFCI installed, you can buy a portable one pretty cheaply at Home Depot.

[jason the filter freak]

If you don't have a GFCI installed, you can buy a portable one pretty cheaply at Home Depot.

 

Agreed I have one on each of my tanks. Also note that when you're plugging and unplugging wires check VERY carefully for blackened scorch marks and frayed wiring other wise I agree with Rascal

[quazi]

Did you check your heater? It might have a small crack in it. What is (was) in the water? Typically it would be a heat and maybe a pump of some sort.

[dbartco]

a ltille confused here. Was fuming from where exactly. From the outlet strip? From inside the tank?

 

I would go with the heater theory if "inside". If below, possibly salt creep or spillage into the strip and there was arcing inside the plug. If so, throw the strip away NOW.

[toastiireefs]

a ltille confused here. Was fuming from where exactly. From the outlet strip? From inside the tank?

 

I would go with the heater theory if "inside". If below, possibly salt creep or spillage into the strip and there was arcing inside the plug. If so, throw the strip away NOW.

 

no it was fuming from inside the sump, and that is where the noise was coming from.

 

sooo yea i will go invest in the GFCI thing, which i read about a long time ago, and thought less of it. . . until now. . . . of course.

 

thanks!! and i will try to figure out the source, which i agree is the heater. . . i am just a little paranoid about electrical stuff and salt water now. . . since i finally got my self electricuted a few weeks ago.

(wasnt that bad-- but thats what you get for playing with salt water and electricity!! )

 

and thanks soo much guys! i will update laters

[Coral Hind]

I agree with what everyone suggested on the process of elimination via use of a GFCI. I have had a heater crack before and it did exactly what you have described.

 

If you can't find the problem let me know. I work at NIH in Bethesda and can stop by with a meter and check it out for you.

 

 

. . i am just a little paranoid about electrical stuff and salt water now. . . since i finally got my self electricuted a few weeks ago.

(wasnt that bad-- but thats what you get for playing with salt water and electricity!! )

You were electrocuted!

Welcome back from the dead!

Edited November 5, 2008 by Coral Hind

[dbartco]

To be honest, I have heard great things about arc faults over gfi's for your breakers. So GFI's a must, AFI's better (but not sure they make a afi receptacle)

 

And a little jolt to wake you up isn't that bad, I once discoverved I had a leak in my tank while vacuuming. Somehow beween the metal handle of the vacuum, the motor getting wet, and the switch on the handle, it lit me up!!! I tell my wife that it traumatized me so much, that is why I never vacuum anymore.

[txaggies07]

I have all my equipment plugged into a DJ rack and then that plugged into a GFCI. It makes it so easy to figure out what is causing the problem. Turn everything on one by one and whichever one flips the GFCI, then that is the culprit. Once you have the GFCI, you will find the problem in a matter of a minute or two. They really are great things and you should have one on every tank.

[CHUBAKAH]

TBH It's not a matter of which is "better" it's matter of what your trying to accomplish.

 

GFCI - AKA ground fault circuit interrupt. GFCI constantly monitors electricity flowing in a circuit, to sense any loss of current. If the current flowing through the circuit differs by a small amount from that returning, the GFCI quickly switches off power to that circuit. The GFCI interrupts power faster than a blink of an eye to prevent a lethal dose of electricity. You may receive a painful shock, but you should not be electrocuted or receive a serious shock injury. I'll also add if you read the directions on "most" fish related lighting, more times than not they say "not" to use a GFCI receptacle.

 

AFCI - AKA arc fault circuit interrupter. AFCIs are newly-developed electrical devices designed to protect against fires caused by arcing faults in the home electrical wiring. Conventional circuit breakers only respond to overloads and short circuits; so they do not protect against arcing conditions that produce erratic current flow. An AFCI is selective so that normal arcs do not cause it to trip. The AFCI circuitry continuously monitors current flow through the AFCI. AFCIs use unique current sensing circuitry to discriminate between normal and unwanted arcing conditions. Once an unwanted arcing condition is detected, the control circuitry in the AFCI trips the internal contacts, thus de-energizing the circuit and reducing the potential for a fire to occur. An AFCI should not trip during normal arcing conditions, which can occur when a switch is opened or a plug is pulled from a receptacle.

 

In this particular instance, it "sounds" like an AFCI would have worked.

 

Coral Hind has offered to come by and check it out, and is really the proper way to check it out. Just using a GFCI plug TBH, is bad and unsafe advice.

 

Sorry, if I come off a little brash, but electrical is nothing to fool around with.

 

 

 

~Mark

[dschflier]

I hope I am not stealing the thread by asking another electrical question. If so you can delete the question. I installed a 20 amp circuit to power most of my equipment and intentionally did not put a GFCI in the circuit. Was this a mistake? I guess it is unsafe not to have one?

[treesprite]

You should use circuit interupters as suggested. I didn't understand the purpose in them until I got electrocuted. I think I paid about 12 bucks for each of the ones I have.

[CHUBAKAH]

I hope I am not stealing the thread by asking another electrical question. If so you can delete the question. I installed a 20 amp circuit to power most of my equipment and intentionally did not put a GFCI in the circuit. Was this a mistake? I guess it is unsafe not to have one?

Is the wire you hooked it to 12-2 wire, and not the standard 14-2?

 

Are your plugs in an area that are going to get splashed without question?

 

I wouldn't say it was a mistake unless the wire is 14-2 wire. 20 amps requires 12-2, and could overheat if your adding a ton of stuff, or if this is on a non dedicated circuit and things are plugged in around the room.

 

The standard in the industry is 24 items per circuit or 12 plugs, so think of it that way.

 

In other words, your circuit is as safe as you are/were...

[Coral Hind]

You should use circuit interupters as suggested. I didn't understand the purpose in them until I got electrocuted. I think I paid about 12 bucks for each of the ones I have.

 

Wow, you got electrocuted too! That makes two people on this thread that has died and come back to life.

[Brian Ward]

I hope I am not stealing the thread by asking another electrical question. If so you can delete the question. I installed a 20 amp circuit to power most of my equipment and intentionally did not put a GFCI in the circuit. Was this a mistake? I guess it is unsafe not to have one?

 

With the 20A circuit, you need to have run 12-2 wire. That's the minimum gauge that is rated to safely carry 20A of power. If you ran 14-2, you should replace the breaker with a 15A. As far as GFCI, you can either do that as a breaker or you can make your outlets GFCI. Doing the outlets as GFCI gives you higher sensitivity and if something trips you will only have 1 or 2 items switch off (or everything downstream, depending on how you wired) but in general, everything won't turn off. You should have GFCI somewhere to protect you from electrocution.

 

GFCI (Ground Fault) protects YOU from being electrocuted.

 

AFCI (Arc Fault) protects YOUR HOUSE from burning down.

 

That is basically the difference between the two. You should use both wherever possible.

[Coral Hind]

I hope I am not stealing the thread by asking another electrical question. If so you can delete the question. I installed a 20 amp circuit to power most of my equipment and intentionally did not put a GFCI in the circuit. Was this a mistake? I guess it is unsafe not to have one?

 

In addition to what Chubakah has already mentioned to you. It depends on what all you have on the circuit.

 

I do not have a GFCI protecting everything for my tanks. Things like powerheads, submerged pumps and heaters should be on one. I do not however have any of my lighting on a GFCI becasue of the nuisance tripping that can happen at strat up. It also helps to split up your power heads, pumps or heaters on at least two different GFCI's so if one trips out you will still have some basic water movement.

[Rascal]

Coral Hind has offered to come by and check it out, and is really the proper way to check it out. Just using a GFCI plug TBH, is bad and unsafe advice.

 

I don't understand this. What is unsafe about using a GFCI to try to identify the problem? I have always used this method because I thought it was the safest way to locate the problem, at least under certain circumstances. The circumstances I am talking about are when (1) there is an electrical problem (which in this case there is) and (2) the electrical problem is something that causes a GFCI outlet to trip. If everything is run through a (working) GFCI and there is an electrical problem that doesn't cause the GFCI to trip, then obviously you have to try something else (I am guessing you would use a meter to look for stray voltage?). But if the problem does cause the GFCI to trip, then why not just unplug everything, reset the GFCI, and plug things in one by one until it trips again? When it does, you now have a situation in which (1) you have identified the piece of defective equipment, which plug you are still holding in your hand; and (2) the power is shut off, so you can safely remove the piece of equipment before powering up again. This method has worked for me many times, and I have never received even the slightest shock while doing it. Using a meter seems possibly more dangerous to me because it might require some handling of potentially defective equipment while live. What am I missing?

 

I installed a 20 amp circuit to power most of my equipment and intentionally did not put a GFCI in the circuit. Was this a mistake? I guess it is unsafe not to have one?

 

Are your plugs in an area that are going to get splashed without question?

 

I wouldn't say it was a mistake unless the wire is 14-2 wire. 20 amps requires 12-2, and could overheat if your adding a ton of stuff, or if this is on a non dedicated circuit and things are plugged in around the room.

 

This I do disagree with. If you have AC electrical appliances in the water they should definitely be protected by a GFCI. Using an AFCI breaker in addition is even better, but I can't think of any reason not to use a GFCI. It is not just a splash of water on the plugs that you have to be concerned with. If you get a crack in a heater or the epoxy sealing the power cord of a power head springs a leak, or a fan or light accidentally drops in the water or the sump overflows and your external pump is now partially submerged . . . . a lot can go wrong. Ask Folta: http://www.wamas.org/forums/index.php?show...28&hl=power.

 

Or Martin:

Well, pre GFI I had a JBJ power head that was sending current into the water., I got a tingle at first. Didn't hurt much. Then I put one hand in the tank with the short and one in another tank while bare foot on a cement floor. It was like the cartoons, I was frozen in place and convulsing. That may have saved me, I must have broke contact with the water surface while convulsing. My body hurt all over and it felt like I pulled some muscles as well. My brother, who is a contractor, said it could have easly killed me. Sure felt like it to me.

 

Grounding probes, GFI, and if it tingles when I touch the glass-I don't further test it with my hands. No more JBJ pumps either.

 

Crash in on armed drugs dealers--fun stuff--die working on fish tank, thats no good.

. (For those who don't know, that last part is in reference to his job with the DCPD, not another hobby of his ).

[MisterTang]

I have all my equipment plugged into a DJ rack and then that plugged into a GFCI. It makes it so easy to figure out what is causing the problem. Turn everything on one by one and whichever one flips the GFCI, then that is the culprit.

 

Or just take the lamp out of the sump

 

If I remember correctly, it went something like "Wow, aren't you worried that the lamp is going to go in the water?" Spash-BZZZZZZZZT.

[CHUBAKAH]

I don't understand this.

Exactly

What am I missing?

I don't think you really want me to answer that.

[lanman]

How apropos... Toastireefs... including 'The smokin' sump!'

 

bob

[Rascal]

Exactly

 

I don't think you really want me to answer that.

 

No, actually I do. I would not have posted otherwise. I was not trying to challenge you, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I recognize that you have a lot more knowledge about electrical stuff than I do. If I thought otherwise I would not have wasted my time responding. I was just trying to explain why this is a method that I use precisely because it seems like the safest way to me. From this thread alone you can see that Jason, Txaggies, and Coral Hind use the same method, at least in some circumstances. So if there is something about this method that makes it bad and unsafe to advise others to follow it, I really do want to know.

 

 

As for Dschflier's question, he asked whether it was unsafe not to have a GFCI somewhere in the circuit that powers most of his electrical equipment for this tank. As I understand your answer you believe it would not be unsafe as long as he used the correct gauge wire and his plugs were not going to get splashed on. Upon further reflection and perhaps a bit of research I hope you will reconsider.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Rascal

[CHUBAKAH]

If a heater, and or any other device were to split, or break as you suggest, it would cause a short, in turn turning off the breaker. It wouldn't matter if it was a regular breaker, GFCI or AFCI, all of them will trip.

 

Now, if you going to be standing in your sump, and you drop a light in there, then sure that is a bit unsafe, as the response time is not quite as fast and say a GFCI, but all things considered, it is not unsafe to use a normal breaker under normal circumstances.

 

Trust me when I say I have seen more than my share of WAMAS members homes that were more unsafe due to overloaded circuits.

 

I'll answer the testing question tomorrow. Way too tired to type out my reply this evening.

[Rascal]

If a heater, and or any other device were to split, or break as you suggest, it would cause a short, in turn turning off the breaker. It wouldn't matter if it was a regular breaker, GFCI or AFCI, all of them will trip.

 

Yeah, I used to think that way too, then I got shocked. :(

 

I know a complete short will trip the breaker, but if only one of the leads gets exposed, there wouldn't be a short would there? Just a lot of stray voltage looking for path to ground. And that's where we come in. . . .

 

Seriously, I may not have the expertise to adequately understand/explain the causes of stray voltage in the tank, but Martin's story is scary because with both hands in the tank the possibility that he could have had current passing directly through his heart is very real. He had a $12 power head malfunctioning, for whatever reason. He could have died because of it. A GFCI would have tripped about the same instant he realized something was wrong, as soon as he put his hand in the tank and felt the first sharp "tingle." His was not an isolated incident. In this hobby, something going wrong is a normal circumstance.

[CHUBAKAH]

 

Yeah, I used to think that way too, then I got shocked. :(

 

I know a complete short will trip the breaker, but if only one of the leads gets exposed, there wouldn't be a short would there?

"if" the tank was not grounded, then that would be the case, but I'm sure everyone at least at WAMAS grounds their tank right?

 

No your right in that aspect.

 

I'm doing a lot of assuming here I suppose, or you are.

 

lol