parameter adjustment

[jamal]

i was having a problem keeping my calcium up especially with weekly wc's. i use instant ocean but i was thinking of switching to reef crystals. my question is which is easier and cheaper. since reef crystals has more of what i need in the ca, alk, and mag areas. should i just add turbo calcium and baking soda to my new water or switch to reef crystals which is about 50 bux here compared to 34 for the 200 gal box of IO salt

[Grav]

Doing water changes alone will never be enough to keep up with even mild CA demand. If your CA is 350 (or whatever... we need more info) and you do a 10% water change with water with CA of 400, you have only added 50 PPM to 10% of the water... which will bring the tank to 355. Depending on demand you could be back to 350 in a day, certainly before your next water change.

 

However you could add a CA suplement (I like Randy's 3 part, but there are others) in 20 seconds and go from 350 to 370. Just don't forget the ALK and MG to go along or you will be out of whack.

[johnnybv]

Check your magnesium, it is the most overlooked parameter. Without it you will not be able to maintain Ca, alk or pH. Should be around 1280ppm

 

John

[jamal]

i do use randy's recipe. my alk stays at around 9.5 dkh. my magnesium is at 1500 usually so that is not a problem. im saying that the water is deficient of the 3 params sps keepers care about and i wanted to know is it cheaper to just get a salt with more of those things or just buffer it myself.

[dschflier]

Do you use any kind of reactor? It seams to me that it is just so much easier to use a reactor and forget it. At most you will have to add Magnesium which from my understanding wil help you raise your Calcium. Although you say your mag is good.

 

I am still learning and reading alot about this subject so I always like listening to what advice is given. A question I would ask is how does PH effect calcium levels? What is your PH? I am asking this because I am not sure, but it seams to me that it can have a significant impact.

[zotzer]

Jamal,

I use RC, and don't have that much of a calcium load in my tank. I still need to dose daily with two-part, FWIW

Tracy

[gastone]

Jamal,

 

I use IO and have been contemplating switching over to RC for the reasons you mentioned. It's probably six of one and half dozen of the other by the time you take into account adjusting each batch of newly mixed IO to get sufficient calcium and magnesium versus the RC which is pretty spot on out of the box. The way I figure it is that it saves me from buying more additives and spending more time ensuring that my levels are accurate. Just my thoughts.

 

Garrett.

[jamal]

as garrett said i decided that the time and effort required to bring the IO mix up to par makes it a little much. so i am just going to go with RC salt. my ph is low at 8-7.7. i use a kalk reactor that stays on all day. my magnesium as of yesterday was 1450ppm. i am still using randy's 2 part and will continue to do so. my thought is that since i do weekly water changes it is easier to have a salt that is right on from mix so i can just maintain it rather than using the mix to bring it up as well. right now my calcium is 350ppm and i would like about 400-420ppm.

[Guest Aurora]

I think you are unfairly blaming your salt for your inability to keep up with your parameters. Why are you having trouble keeping up your Ca/Alk if you are using 2 part? It's likely because you are not adding enough to keep up with your coral uptake since the drop from water changes is not that much. If you are using Randy's then you just need to add a little more than what you are doing to get your Ca up to where you want it. If your corals are not growing and you are having trouble keeping up then you are loosing Ca/Alk by other means such as precipitation somewhere else. As the math shows, if you have Ca of 400 and you do a 10% weekly water change of new water with Ca at 300, you will lower your CA to 390 with one change. At this rate, it will take about 4 weeks to drop your Ca from 400 to 350 SOLELY due to water changes if you are using new water at Ca of 300 (I don't think IO is that low). Now if you are adding 2 part soln daily, it's pretty easy to make the adjustment...you just add a bit more of both. You still have to add your 2 part despite whichever salt you are using so the labor of adding the 2 part really doesn't change.

 

From a cost perspective, RC costs $50/150G bucket = $0.33/G and IO $35/200G box = $0.18/G for a difference of $0.15/G if you convert to RC. This is almost a doubling in price for RC. For your 300G system and you are doing weekly water change of 10% or 30G...you are doing about 1500G of water change over a 1 year period. This equates to an ADDITIONAL cost of $225 a year ABOVE what you are spending if you switch to RC. Now, I don't think it costs you more than $225 a year for ADDITIONAL supplement in Alk and Ca to compensate ONLY for the slight drop as the result of your water changes. Of course this calculation is for Ca and Alk only and does not take into consideration of Mg and other additives that maybe in RC. If you think that RC is a better salt and will make your corals grow faster, more colorful and brighter then the cost is nothing. However, if you are getting good color and growth from IO and don't expect any difference with RC, the additional cost is significant for essentially the same labor.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Aurora

[jamal]

it actually seems to take alot to get it up after a water change. i change about 35 gal a week so its a little more than 10%. my alk is fine but it takes almost a whole bottle of magnesium for one water change and according to the calculator it takes about 60 oz to get what reef crystals will give me what i get out of the box. also the additional trace elements you get are hard to calculate.

[Guest Aurora]

For a 300G system, why are you using liquid Magnesium? You'll need a few gallon of those to keep up. You need to use Mag Chloride salts. Try Mag Flakes from Home Depot/Farm Store for about $15/50lb or a food-based Mag Chloride called Nigari at about $50/40 lbs. I've been using Nigari for about 4 years but looking into Mag Flakes...

Edited December 10, 2007 by Aurora

[txaggies07]

I get RC from drfostersmith and it works out to like $35 after shipping.

[jamal]

i use the third part of randy's recipe. 5 cups of magflake and 3 cups of epsom salt. i had to put about half a 1 gal container to bring it up from IO levels. is it on sale at drsfostersmith regularly and if not how often?

Edited December 10, 2007 by jamal

[Guest Aurora]

I have a 400G system stocked with SPS, a 24" clam, and sucking up Ca like there's no tomorrow. Each year I go through about 30 lbs of Mag Chloride, 20lbs of Ca reactor media, and a few cups of Dow Flakes/baking soda for occasional adjustments. I would say 1/2 of that is from coral uptake and the other 1/2 from water changes. I only change 40g every 2-3 weeks. My point is that your coral uptakes far outstrip the minor adjustment from your water changes. I'm not sure that changing salt will fix your problem. I think the difference is you are running higher than normal Magnesium level and doing 2-3 times the water changes that I'm doing. At that Magnesium, you're gonna have to supplement regardless of whatever salt you use.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Aurora

[jamal]

well for one thing i dont have a calcium reactor so that makes a huge difference. my ph is low so i cant have one. since my demand is raising rather quickly with the corals i am adding i find that my calcium is low because of the salt not a lack of maintenance. my alk stays at about 9.5dkh. my mag goes to about 800ppm after 2 or 3 water changes. i tested the magnesium at 1.020 specific gravity and the magnesium was 810ppm. i usually dont mix it low but it still wouldnt be more than 1000-1100ppm at 1.026 which is where i keep my sg. also it would be easier and cheaper to maintain cal if it was higher out of the box. as of now i am using turbo calcium to raise it but i would just need to buffer if it was already higher. also when i was using RC salt before i got better polyp extension. so i am going to see if it was the salt or some other factor. lastly i will probably be switching to bi weekly water changes in a few which will change the estimation as well. if i get better results from RC i will stay with it but if i dont i will probably go back to IO salt. anybody on here notice a difference in coral health or behavior do to using a salt meant for reef tanks especially RC salt?

[Guest Aurora]

Don't get me wrong....I've also considered changing from IO to RC also just to see if it makes a difference in my corals but it may be all marketting gimmicks to charge more for the same stuff unless they've really revamp their formula recently. Your original question only inquired about Ca and Alk problem with IO salt. If your corals are sucking up that much Ca ( and you are not losing Ca by other means )....you need a Ca reactor.

 

BTW...look at this....

http://www.aquacraft.net/w0024.html

 

A bit dated but interesting readings...

http://www.nordicreefforum.dk/forum_posts....D=3063&PN=1

Edited December 10, 2007 by Aurora

[jamal]

that was good reading. thanx aurora

[flowerseller]

I have been using IO since about '84.

 

I still use it but also use a kalk reactor and a Ca reactor.

If you're doing the same, you may not have it adusted correctly.

 

This is my belief and suspect .

The additional Ca chloride in RC does not mix adequately with the 2 parts and precipitates out.

 

I've posted this many many times that if you use 2 part and Kalk, you will bind your sand. This seems to prove my experience of fall out.

 

I still think that unless your MG is super duper low, it will not have a huge impact.

[gastone]

Jamal what is your ph at? I'm surprised that it would be low running a kalk reactor. How much feed, how often is it engaging? Where is it dumping (specifically in relation to your phosphate media)?

 

Garrett.

Edited December 10, 2007 by gastone

[jamal]

my ph is between 8.0 and 7.7. i got the kalk rx because of my ph. i feed two cubes of frozen at 6pm and i feed a quarter size piece of pe mysis at 10ish with a nickel size piece of cyclopeeze. the reactor is on 23hrs a day. it is dumping on the opposite end of my 100 gal rubbermaid sump as my kalk rx. the kalk is going in near a gravity fed fuge on one side of the sump.

 

I have been using IO since about '84.

 

I still use it but also use a kalk reactor and a Ca reactor.

If you're doing the same, you may not have it adusted correctly.

 

This is my belief and suspect .

The additional Ca chloride in RC does not mix adequately with the 2 parts and precipitates out.

 

I've posted this many many times that if you use 2 part and Kalk, you will bind your sand. This seems to prove my experience of fall out.

 

I still think that unless your MG is super duper low, it will not have a huge impact.

 

i noticed that as well chip but what can i do? i want higher calcium out of the mix. i wasnt having problems with IO and think its a good salt except for cal and mag.

 

maybe if i do a 50/50 mixture of IO and RC it would bring up the cal a little without precipitating. what do you guys think of that?

[flowerseller]

From my point of view, this "parameter" debate will continue as long as we all insist upon keeping our corals and fish in water. It'd be a whole lot less exciting if we didn't huh?

 

Let's have a rip roaring discussion right after XMAS because I'm up to my eyeballs right now.

When it gets up to that little patch of hair in the front of my head, my wife says we're all in trouble.

 

BTW, I find with higher ALK 910-120, the Ca can be 380-400 and still grow the stuff like crazy.

 

 

I would think mixing the two is fine but a whole lot unneccessary.

[SkiCurtis]

does anyone use red sea pro salt.they make a strong statement on the calcium,but you do have to use rodi water. I have used it since Macna. I had 3 free buckets (2 from TomD) and i have bought 2 200 gallon buckets. see the calcium level they say they have.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod...20salt&Np=1

Curtis

[Guest Aurora]

I think the major problem is that aquarists unreasonably expect or assume every bag of salt they buy to contain the same amount of everything but that is impossible. There are significant variations in contents from bag to bag that is unavoidable as part of the manufacturing process. These salt are manufactured in big batches a few tons at a time then packaged into smaller 10 lb bags. The more you mix the salt, the more likely that it will be uniform but 100% uniformed mix is impossible to achieve regardless of how much mixing you do. Essentially all of your bags will be similar but 1-2/or more small bags out of a batch will receive too little of something and 1-2/or more out of the same batch will receive too much of something. So if you are a salt manufacturer, you know ahead of time that about 1-2 of 100 bags will give... say.... too high of alkalinity then what should you do? Too low of alkalinity is not going to crash a tank but too high may do it depending on the tank. So what do you do? You err on the lower side a bit to reduce the chance that your customer is gonna hit a bag that will wipe out his/her tank. That's my 2c on the whole issue. That's why you hear all these stories of occasional people hitting a bad batch of salt but 99% of the other people report no problem at all 99% of the time.