Bacteria Dosing?

[YHSublime]

So @ReefdUpmentioned bacteria dosing in a recent post here and I'm wondering how many of our locals are doing this? 

 

When I started my tank 5 years ago, I got sand and rocks from local members and tried to get as much diversity into my tank as I could. I've added rock and corals from 15+ year old tanks along the way, and continued to add pods and occasionally phyto. I have never had an ICP water test, but I am curious to see the results when I do. 

 

What brands are you using, how much are you adding per water volume? 

[Origami]

I haven't in a very long time so I'm pretty sure that my microbiome is less than balanced. However, when I did, I was dosing Brightwell's Microbacter 7.

 

It's possibly off, but here's an article on AquariumScience.org that tested a variety of bacteria-in-a-bottle products (in a series of freshwater aquarium tests) and summarized, "that bacteria-in-a-bottle products do not help establish a cycle any faster than adding nothing. None of them will do anything to "avoid new tank syndrome."" It did not, in any way, talk to whether the products can be used to establish or re-establish diversity in the microbiome, though. 

 

This begs the question of whether the same outcome could be expected in saltwater environments.

 

Chart from the linked article:

[YHSublime]

Adding to an established (saltwater) tank is what I'm wondering will be beneficial or not. The algae doesn't bother me, and I know with my water changes and manual removal I will get back to where I need to be, but I never considered bacteria dosing! 

 

I don't like to add anything I can't test for, and I'm also a huge believer of the KISS method. Other than dosing for alkalinity & calcium balance, skimming, and water changes, there is nothing I do special or complicated. 

 

I am seeing an algae bloom in my 3 months transfer from an established 22 gallon to an 80 gallon. 

 

I did have a fish that was way too large for the aquarium for a month, was feeding heavy, and had an undersized skimmer. I believe this lead to all the algae after the transfer. I also got a ton of Coraline algae right off the bat. In the 22, I rarely had to clean my glass. In my frag tank, I also rarely have to clean my glass. Now in the 80, every 3 days if I have not touched the glass, I can not see through it. 

 

 

[howaboutme]

Isaac...I personally think that the dreaded dinos people get are somehow tied to dosing bacteria. I have zero proof and it's likely not that easy and other things most certainly are involved but if you read a lot of the threads here and elsewhere you will find a loose correlation between the two. Again, zero proof but don't really care. I'll never use it.

 

I think your 3 month algae bloom is normal. When I transferred, I had one. Didn't change a thing and it all went away. Not overnight but it went away.

[BowieReefer84]

Once upon a time I bought some of those little blue glass bottles. Can't remember the brand. Honestly... I don't plan to ever do that again.

 

[YHSublime]

3 hours ago, howaboutme said:

Isaac...I personally think that the dreaded dinos people get are somehow tied to dosing bacteria. I have zero proof and it's likely not that easy and other things most certainly are involved but if you read a lot of the threads here and elsewhere you will find a loose correlation between the two. Again, zero proof but don't really care. I'll never use it.

 

I think your 3 month algae bloom is normal. When I transferred, I had one. Didn't change a thing and it all went away. Not overnight but it went away.

 

I agree it will go away. Got a CUC today, some turbos are already doing some work on the floor. I'm just interested in the bacteria dosing, lots of different things in this hobby, what's funny is I just added more water, everything else is the same! 

 

2 hours ago, BowieReefer84 said:

Once upon a time I bought some of those little blue glass bottles. Can't remember the brand. Honestly... I don't plan to ever do that again.

 

 

LoL, the old Zeo craze, some folks are still doing it. 

[ReefdUp]

When I talk about bacteria dosing, I'm talking about essentially carbon dosing theory without the carbon addition. There is a balancing act with the levels of nitrate, phosphate, bacteria, and carbon. If a tank is high in phosphate and nitrate, it may just need a bacterial boost (both nutrients are required for bacteria). If the nutrient levels drop, then regularly dosing bacteria will address the nutrient levels together... up to the point the tank is carbon limited. Both phosphate and nitrate are testable. Carbon and bacteria are the limiting factors after that. Address those, and phosphate and nitrate are easily controllable.

 

My tank is typically high on phosphates with undetectable nitrates, so I dose both bacteria and nitrate to reduce the phosphates. It generally takes 40ml nitrate solution (I forget the concentration I made) for my 120g tank... DAILY... to keep the phosphates low. I also dose Microbacter 7 daily (although I've use others).

 

On the rare occasion, I have had my tanks become phosphate-limited, and nitrate-high, so I've had to dose phosphates to help bring down the nitrates. Crazy, I know. But the amount was super-low (maybe 6ml of the solution).

 

On the super-rare occasion, I do extremely low carbon dosing just to boost the bacteria temporarily.

 

My tanks are mature, but I bring in dying corals frequently (which should contribute to the biodiversity, but maybe in a negative manner). I have the aquabiomics kits to test my tanks, but I just haven't done it yet. 

 

Bottom line, I don't recommend this technique for anyone without advanced knowledge and testing capability, as it is a complete juggling act. For the advanced aquarist, it's nice to have very precise levels of nutrients controlled over time (rather than too rapid of a drop with GFO). But, at a minimum, bacteria dosing can help rule out a bacterial-limitation on nutrient processing for a newbie.

[howaboutme]

8 hours ago, ReefdUp said:

When I talk about bacteria dosing, I'm talking about essentially carbon dosing theory without the carbon addition. There is a balancing act with the levels of nitrate, phosphate, bacteria, and carbon. If a tank is high in phosphate and nitrate, it may just need a bacterial boost (both nutrients are required for bacteria). If the nutrient levels drop, then regularly dosing bacteria will address the nutrient levels together... up to the point the tank is carbon limited. Both phosphate and nitrate are testable. Carbon and bacteria are the limiting factors after that. Address those, and phosphate and nitrate are easily controllable.

 

My tank is typically high on phosphates with undetectable nitrates, so I dose both bacteria and nitrate to reduce the phosphates. It generally takes 40ml nitrate solution (I forget the concentration I made) for my 120g tank... DAILY... to keep the phosphates low. I also dose Microbacter 7 daily (although I've use others).

 

On the rare occasion, I have had my tanks become phosphate-limited, and nitrate-high, so I've had to dose phosphates to help bring down the nitrates. Crazy, I know. But the amount was super-low (maybe 6ml of the solution).

 

On the super-rare occasion, I do extremely low carbon dosing just to boost the bacteria temporarily.

 

My tanks are mature, but I bring in dying corals frequently (which should contribute to the biodiversity, but maybe in a negative manner). I have the aquabiomics kits to test my tanks, but I just haven't done it yet. 

 

Bottom line, I don't recommend this technique for anyone without advanced knowledge and testing capability, as it is a complete juggling act. For the advanced aquarist, it's nice to have very precise levels of nutrients controlled over time (rather than too rapid of a drop with GFO). But, at a minimum, bacteria dosing can help rule out a bacterial-limitation on nutrient processing for a newbie.

 

It sounds like you're talking about the redfield ratio? Many years ago we talked about it as a thing but I've seen more recent posts where it's not. I'm NO3 limited too but haven't played with it since I don't check PO4.

[YHSublime]

11 hours ago, ReefdUp said:

Bottom line, I don't recommend this technique for anyone without advanced knowledge and testing capability, as it is a complete juggling act. For the advanced aquarist, it's nice to have very precise levels of nutrients controlled over time (rather than too rapid of a drop with GFO). But, at a minimum, bacteria dosing can help rule out a bacterial-limitation on nutrient processing for a newbie.

 

Got it. 

 

While I think I have the knowledge, and the testing capability, the idea of a juggling act sounds like a complete nightmare to me! I'll continue with my KISS method

 

[ReefdUp]

2 hours ago, howaboutme said:

 

It sounds like you're talking about the redfield ratio? Many years ago we talked about it as a thing but I've seen more recent posts where it's not. I'm NO3 limited too but haven't played with it since I don't check PO4.

 

The Redfield Ratio isn't directly related. That doesn't change the fact that bacteria process phosphate and nitrate. Limiting one limits the uptake of the other. I don't maintain a ratio; I maintain sufficient levels of both to reduce both.

[DaJMasta]

Hmm, your description of the high phosphates and no nitrates sound somewhat like the way my tank has been running.  I've been carbon dosing (vodka) but have been limited on how high I can go with it because of lack of nitrate, even though my phosphate levels are routinely 1ppm or more.

 

Not exactly bacteria dosing, but the carbon dosing is sort of for the same thing (and my aquabiomics test came back pretty well balanced and diverse), so I wonder if I should try dosing some nitrate and increasing the vodka addition (to the tank, I swear!)

[ReefdUp]

2 hours ago, DaJMasta said:

Hmm, your description of the high phosphates and no nitrates sound somewhat like the way my tank has been running.  I've been carbon dosing (vodka) but have been limited on how high I can go with it because of lack of nitrate, even though my phosphate levels are routinely 1ppm or more.

 

Not exactly bacteria dosing, but the carbon dosing is sort of for the same thing (and my aquabiomics test came back pretty well balanced and diverse), so I wonder if I should try dosing some nitrate and increasing the vodka addition (to the tank, I swear!)

 

Try the nitrate dosing - go slow. You might just be a convert! I absolutely love it and find it much easier to manage than other nutrient reduction methods once you get used to it. You may not need the vodka dosing if you just bump up your nitrates.

[YHSublime]

2 hours ago, DaJMasta said:

I wonder if I should try dosing some nitrate and increasing the vodka addition (to the tank, I swear!)

 

6 minutes ago, ReefdUp said:

 

Try the nitrate dosing - go slow. You might just be a convert! I absolutely love it 

 

[ReefdUp]

Here's a calculator for dosing nitrate... 

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

 

You can buy pre-made solutions, but I buy my nitrate in bulk (probably on every watch list by now...). Pre-made is probably the best until you see how the tank reacts.

 

So, here's why I love managing nutrients this way... I have super-rich colors in my SPS that I can tweak just right. My SPS don't get pastel/ bleached, I can run high alk without burnt tips, and I avoid the plagues of dinos (typically associated with low nutrients). 

 

The downside is that if I forget... well... you don't want to know my phosphate levels. Let's just say I can't use the Hanna ULR phosphate checker... (But, I know I'm a fringe case from my rescuing efforts.)

[DaJMasta]

No judgement, I've seen 2ppm on my Salifert kit

The SPS are generally fine with it, presumably they are just used to it, but I do see a bit of loss of coloration near the base of one acro in particular that helps clue me into when to go with the lanthanum chloride (a viable option, but likely would need to be a daily dose to maintain a "regular" level).  I'd rather have the nutrients converted into filter feeder food anyways.

[howaboutme]

8 hours ago, ReefdUp said:

Here's a calculator for dosing nitrate... 

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

 

You can buy pre-made solutions, but I buy my nitrate in bulk (probably on every watch list by now...). Pre-made is probably the best until you see how the tank reacts.

 

So, here's why I love managing nutrients this way... I have super-rich colors in my SPS that I can tweak just right. My SPS don't get pastel/ bleached, I can run high alk without burnt tips, and I avoid the plagues of dinos (typically associated with low nutrients). 

 

The downside is that if I forget... well... you don't want to know my phosphate levels. Let's just say I can't use the Hanna ULR phosphate checker... (But, I know I'm a fringe case from my rescuing efforts.)

 

You mentioned you dose 40mL daily. What NO3 does that get you? What's your sweet spot?

[ReefdUp]

1 hour ago, howaboutme said:

 

You mentioned you dose 40mL daily. What NO3 does that get you? What's your sweet spot?

 

I need to look up my recipe (I'm not near it right now). But I try to keep my nitrate at 4ppm. Anything lower, and it's gone the next day. Anything higher, and then I start to get algae issues.

[cpeguero]

Really interesting discussion! I personally dose Microbactr 7 weekly (per instructions). Got my aquabiom results recently. It’s quite well balanced, but they said they didn’t find any nitrite processing bacteria in the sample, which was weird.

My nitrates have always been undetectable, but phosphate levels have been high… haven’t checked them recently. Maybe I’ll look into dosing nitrates… algae is better than it was, but still more than it should be….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ReefdUp]

14 hours ago, cpeguero said:

Really interesting discussion! I personally dose Microbactr 7 weekly (per instructions). Got my aquabiom results recently. It’s quite well balanced, but they said they didn’t find any nitrite processing bacteria in the sample, which was weird.

My nitrates have always been undetectable, but phosphate levels have been high… haven’t checked them recently. Maybe I’ll look into dosing nitrates… algae is better than it was, but still more than it should be….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No nitrate processing bacteria with no detectable nitrate... even while dosing MB7?? That is odd. Did you only gather a water sample or take a swab from along the glass/rocks? I think most bacteria is present on surfaces (not in the water column), so that might be the reason. 

[cpeguero]

Just now, ReefdUp said:

 

No nitrate processing bacteria with no detectable nitrate... even while dosing MB7?? That is odd. 

Agreed..... Tank has been up for 2 years, so seems really strange (especially given that I have it full of fish). Maybe just didn't capture any in the sample.....  Since it's all being processed, I'm not concerned, just an odd result. 

[DaJMasta]

I think even with the water sample and the interior swab, stuff gets missed.  My test a few months ago came back negative for cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates.... and I can see them, just neither would live where I swabbed and it was during the day and without stirring things up so presumably they wouldn't be likely to be in the water column.

[cpeguero]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:31 PM, ReefdUp said:

You can buy pre-made solutions, but I buy my nitrate in bulk (probably on every watch list by now...). Pre-made is probably the best until you see how the tank reacts.

What sort of product do you buy? From the calculator you linked to, you can get the nitrate from a couple different sources - Potassium nitrate and ammonium nitrate. Have you tried both? I would imagine the ammonium nitrate adds in ammonium, which gets processed by the bacteria (and therefore gets you more nitrate). Would the Potassium that is added from Potassium nitrate be an issue at all?

 

Looking to try this out (since I'm running out of things to fiddle with and need to get acros to be able to thrive in my tank).

 

[ReefdUp]

3 hours ago, cpeguero said:

What sort of product do you buy? From the calculator you linked to, you can get the nitrate from a couple different sources - Potassium nitrate and ammonium nitrate. Have you tried both? I would imagine the ammonium nitrate adds in ammonium, which gets processed by the bacteria (and therefore gets you more nitrate). Would the Potassium that is added from Potassium nitrate be an issue at all?

 

Looking to try this out (since I'm running out of things to fiddle with and need to get acros to be able to thrive in my tank).

 

 

I actually use sodium nitrate.

Amazon:  Sodium Nitrate, Reagent Grade (chemically Pure) – 1 lb. Bag https://a.co/d/13Ucime

 

But I think I remember Randy Holmes-Farley calculating out the amount of potassium added from dosing potassium nitrate, and I don't think it was much (if you decide to use that, check my memory). 

 

I've used Brightwell's NeoNitro with success, but I need my supplements in much larger bulk nowadays.

 

[cpeguero]

Thanks for the info. I'll probably go with potassium nitrate for now. Just got ICP results which slow slightly low potassium, so can't hurt to add it. Don't want to drive my salinity too high with dosing, especially until I figure out how much I really need to dose.