ICP Test results

[menglish]

So, I have been having some issues with my tank over the last few months. I have loss 5 huge acro colonies (> 5 years old) and the other are certainly struggling a bit.  I just did an ICP test and several things came back low. They are recommending I dose about 11 different products. I am wondering if anyone hear has experience with this and is willing to offer any suggestions.

I have attached the results.

They are suggesting i dose:

Potassium

Bromine

Boron

Strontium

Nickel

Molybdenum

Vanadium

Zinc

Manganese

Iodine

Phophorus

 

I dont agree with all of these and would welcome some feedback.

Bold are the ones I agree with

 

Much thanks

 

Milton's Reef - 06_29_2021 (B-KkL2XO).pdf

[maevepotter]

So sorry to hear that Milton!

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[wildcrazyjoker81]

Sorry to hear it man. I know there are a few of us in the area that have had some big SPS troubles recently, myself included. I sent in an ICP and it really didn't reveal much other than my silicates were a bit high and iodine was low. Epleeds (Eric) has also been having die off as of late of older coral  acro colonies and his ICP had some of the stuff yours did but the only thing that matched mine was low iodine. Not sure if that is the magic parameter that is funky or not, but I ended up doing about 160G worth of water change in my 100G system over a month added a UV and mine seemed to have stopped and coral growth is back on point. It was weird as it just affected my acros.

[gws3]

The first thing I would look at is PO4. PO4 is not constant during a 24 hour period, I believe photosynthetic coral release phosphate during photoperiod and absorb at night. I could have this backwards, it's been a long time since I had low PO4 and the issues it caused. I recommend measuring your PO4 with a Hanna ULR PO4 meter at a few different times during the day and night. If it's hitting 0.00 it's surely an issue. PO4 starvation will cause large old colonies to STN from the inside out in my experience.

 

Iodine at 0 is a concern. It is required for biological processes. The test kits kinda suck as far as trying to dial in NSW levels of .06 PPM. But I would dose some seachem iodide to at least get it to register as non-zero on a test kit. Does enough to bump it to .03. I don't think you risk anything by doing this.

 

I add I, K and Sr to my two part to try to maintain NSW levels. My system on Ca Rx maintains better levels without supplementation.

 

The other thing I would think about is CO2 levels. It's been super hot lately so people have their AC cranking and houses sealed up. This leads to CO2 accumulator and/or fluctuations. High CO2 depresses pH. Varying CO2 causes pH swings. pH swings (not talking about within 24 hrs, but from day to day) causes varying alkalinity consumption. Varying alkalinity consumption of course causes varying alkalinity levels when dosing is constant and of course varying alkalinity causes coral issues. How do your daily peak pH values compare day to day? Are they constant? Is your pH overall running lower than usual?

 

To start I would:

1) measure and observe PO4 values several times throughout a 24 hr period to make sure it's not hitting 0.

2) Add some iodide to get it to 0.03 PPM.

3) observe pH fluctuation day-to-day. compare to historical values.

4) consider buying a cheap CO2 meter off Amazon. make sure your CO2 levels aren't too high (>1000 PPM).

 

This plan only changes one thing, iodine (best to change 1 thing at a time on observe). But will keep an eye on some other important things that you may need to address.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the other trace elements and all the stuff they want you to dose. I don't see any red flags there. At least not until you look into the four items above.

[gws3]

Oh, also, are you on well water or city water? If city water it would be worthwhile to call the municipality and see if they have done anything significant lately. A lot of times I think people blame the water supply simply because they cannot determine the true issue. But I know a few folks skilled at keeping SPS who have had major losses only to find out the city was treating the water supply, despite RODI TDS reading 0.

Edited June 30, 2021 by gws3

[menglish]

Graham,

Many thanks for your response and suggestions.

Couple things;

-My PO4 is usually between 0-0.09. I have lots of historical data for that. measured by hannah checker

-I do have CO2 monitor and that is usually bw 400-700

-I have been really struggling with Ph for months. I do have a CaRx and a Kalk Stirr but ph is still in the 7.8-8 range

-My alk is in the 8-10 dkh range

-I do use city water and my TDS on my RO system is usually 0 but no more that 2

-only my SPS are showing stress signs. All LPS and ok, maybe a bit of muted color, but not obvious

-I do have lugol on hand, I will start that and doing more WC. I will convert my RO water container to salt water  and that would allow me to do an 80G water change. My system is about 220 gallons. You think this is OK?

-Fish are all fine

-I do run GFO and carbon

[maevepotter]

If you're having trouble with pH, I would suggest seeing if your pH rises in a bucket of your tank water, outside the house with an air stone. My house is quite tight. I put a fan in the window for an hour or so when it's the morning or overnight and it helps keep the pH up. Especially true if you have a gas stove.

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[menglish]

2 minutes ago, maevepotter said:

If you're having trouble with pH, I would suggest seeing if your pH rises in a bucket of your tank water, outside the house with an air stone. My house is quite tight. I put a fan in the window for an hour or so when it's the morning or overnight and it helps keep the pH up. Especially true if you have a gas stove.

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This is why i got a CO2 monitor as i thought the CO2 in the house was high but that is not the case, even when i open doors and windows

[ReefAddict]

I’m having similar issues.  My colonies are rtning from the bases.  I’m sending out my ICP this week it will be interesting to compare to yours and see if we have similar test results.  

[gws3]

CO2 400-700 is good, not high at all. CO2 is my leading theory for folks experiencing seasonal issues, but that doesn't appear to be the case for you.

 

When you say you've been struggling with pH, does that mean it's not stable, or that you'd prefer it to be higher than 7.8-8.0? I don't see 7.8-8.0 as an issue. I have three systems, the one I get the best growth in happens to have the lowest pH which ranges from 7.8-8.1. SPS are growing like weeds.

 

For water changes I do 20% every two weeks religiously. I would not rely on water change to bring up Iodine. It can be absorbed and deplete quite quickly. I'd just dose to bring it up to 0.03. Then test every day or two and dose a bit more to keep it at least detectable. If you come up with an Iodine dosing schedule just make sure to check it after a few weeks and a few months. Since you're depleted I think uptake will be more at first, and then drop off a bit. So if you keep dosing at the same amount it'll get high. I think I've had mine up to 4X NSW due to this effect, but I don't believe it will cause any issues. Just make sure it's Iodide (not iodine which is toxic). I can't fully explain the chemistry, but I have read there are safer formats for dosing iodine. I think Seachem is potassium iodide. ICP-OES test shows as iodine, but I think it exists as iodide seawater.

 

Curious, why run GFO if your PO4 is 0-0.09? If you're running GFO, your PO4 hits 0 and your alk is 10 that could absolutely be the cause. Years ago when ULNS and GFO were super popular I killed many SPS this way. It was the worst thing I ever did for SPS in my reefkeeping career.

 

I do not like GFO. It releases dust/particles into the water. It strips PO4 fast at first. It's a bit of a guessing game to get the right amount. With LaCl you can dial in your PO4 to exactly where you want it and keep is stable. But again, with PO4 below 0.10 I wouldn't bother with PO4 removal at all.

 

After that I never ran any phosphate removal for years and PO4 was between 0.6-1.0 on all my systems with no issues. At one point I got it up to 1.2 due to dosing aminos and I started to see dull colors. Now I keep it around 0.15 using LaCl just because I get better growth at this level. Colors are the same. I don't think the actual PO4 level matters too much, it just needs to be stable and not too close to 0 or super high.

 

For the folks I know that had issues with city water... they had 0 TDS out of DI, but still had issues. This surprises me. I would think the RO membrane would catch big molecules and anything left would bind to DI. But I have heard of too many issues with city water from very competent reefers.

 

Anyway, if I were you.. I would get iodide to a detectable level. Don't need to go crazy with dosing and overshoot NSW levels, just get something detectable and keep it there so it is not entirely depleted. And take the GFO off. I would make those two changes and give it at least a month to see what happens.

[gws3]

2 hours ago, maevepotter said:

If you're having trouble with pH, I would suggest seeing if your pH rises in a bucket of your tank water, outside the house with an air stone. My house is quite tight. I put a fan in the window for an hour or so when it's the morning or overnight and it helps keep the pH up. Especially true if you have a gas stove.

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Crazy how much CO2 is produced by burning propane/nat gas, right? Years ago I put a ventless propane space heater in my basement. Within a couple hours my APEX was going nuts with alarms and my pH levels had plummeted. Those ventless heaters should definitely not be installed inside homes in my opinion.

Edited June 30, 2021 by gws3

[maevepotter]

 
Crazy how much CO2 is produced by burning propane/nat gas, right? Years ago I put a ventless propane space heater in my basement. Within a couple hours my APEX was going nuts with alarms and my pH levels had plummeted. Those ventless heaters should definitely not be installed inside homes in my opinion.

It is crazy! I realized our levels were bad for our health. We don't have a real vent above the stove. I started doing tea in an electric boiler instead, otherwise I was using it 8 times a day or so.

Regarding your thing on gfo... I've never run it before but i have a massive algae problem in my semi fish only system (the angel eats everything so i let xenia go wild....). I am trying to turn it around because angel is going to a new home. I have a reactor that I've never used and I ordered gfo from BRS. Do you think this would be a good thing to do?

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[gws3]

41 minutes ago, maevepotter said:

It is crazy! I realized our levels were bad for our health. We don't have a real vent above the stove. I started doing tea in an electric boiler instead, otherwise I was using it 8 times a day or so.

Regarding your thing on gfo... I've never run it before but i have a massive algae problem in my semi fish only system (the angel eats everything so i let xenia go wild....). I am trying to turn it around because angel is going to a new home. I have a reactor that I've never used and I ordered gfo from BRS. Do you think this would be a good thing to do?

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Manual removal and algae eaters are likely what's needed. You could try to strip the water of po4 to starve the algae. But in the end you need something that out competes or eats the algae before it gets out of hand. Zero po4 may starve out the algae, but it would also starve the corals. And as soon as nutrients are added existing algae will take it up faster than corals.

 

Another option would be one of those bacteria based products. Like Vibrant. I think the idea is the bacteria out competes the algae by consuming all the nutrients. But I don't have experience with these types of products.

 

[menglish]

Regarding the ph levels,

It does not gets above 8.0. I run both a 2 chamber CaRx and i dose about 1L per day from a Kalk Stirr. I was expecting that would push it up but it does not.

 

It just settles between 7.8-8.0, which i know is not bad, i was just expecting it would be higher given all i am doing.

 

I usually run GFO constantly, but none for the past 6 weeks. I will stop that and only use when necessary.

 

I will start by doing a 80 gallon WC and will start by adding some Lugol 

 

Appreciate the imput

 

 

 

 

[gws3]

A couple ways to bump ph up is to plumb skimmer intake to the outdoors. This shifts ph up .1 IME.  Also, drip Ca Rx effluent into skimmer intake if you're not already. 

 

Sounds like you got a plan. Happy to help. Hopefully your issue improves. 

[menglish]

3 hours ago, gws3 said:

A couple ways to bump ph up is to plumb skimmer intake to the outdoors. This shifts ph up .1 IME.  Also, drip Ca Rx effluent into skimmer intake if you're not already. 

 

Sounds like you got a plan. Happy to help. Hopefully your issue improves. 

I already have the skimmer intake to the outdoors (Sort of, a storage rm with more draft). I can also look at dripping the CaRx effluent into the skimmer intake.

 

Much thanks

[jhOU]

Lots of great advice already given above. I also had some spring time sps issues. I lost a nice pink lemonade colony and my strawberry shortcake lost a lot of color (thankfully starting to look better now). Everything else seemed fine. My ph range drops about .1-.15 when a/c starts running, and i strongly believe that is enough to be the tipping point for anything that may already be stressed. I did icp, but didn’t show anything concerning. My suspects on what my other stressors may have been… 

1)Flow. my pumps were definitely overdue for cleaning, and noticed detritus settling within some colonies. Cleaned pumps, and more frequent turkey basting of colonies.

2)Bacterial imbalance. Probably secondary issue to the settling detritus issue, but perhaps there is some funkyness that happens in spring that drives bacteria (pollen in the air?). Bacterial issues can snowball quickly. I started dosing microbacter7 and dr tim’s eco balance.

3)Stray voltage. I found a koralia in the sump for dosing lines was leaking voltage pretty significantly. I never got shocked though. I don’t know if i can blame it as a primary cause of issues, but it can’t be good. Replaced with a tunze.

4)Low calcium. I normally run calcium on the lower end at around 400, and it had dropped to 380ish. Probably not a major contributor, but it was noted and corrected.

5)Contaminated source water. In the spring Fairfax Water flushes the mains and switches from combined chlorine to free chlorine. My water out of the tap smelled like a swimming pool. I run dual carbon blocks for chloramines and dual di, but perhaps carbon blocks exhausted faster with the high chlorine and something was getting through. Changed carbon blocks and di. But if this was the primary cause i would think more corals to have been effected, so idk.

6)Salinity. I dose a ton of 2 part, so salinity rises a bit between water changes. I primarily correct it with weekly water changes of slightly lower salinity. It’s not a very significant swing, but something i’m aware of.

 

My advice… increase water changes and dose bacteria like microbacter7 or eco balance to get things under control. Check flow and all equipment is functioning properly.