Velvet treatment

[monkiboy]

a few things worth noting. josh reached out to me and I've been helping him with diagnosis with the information he has been able to provide and based on symptoms and the rough photos it did seem to indicate velvet was at play or at least ich. the timeline of fish additions (namely the gramma) also supported this hence the course for copper. he is now aware of aerosol contamination and the need for controlling ammonia. additionally, I reached out to a couple reefer friends (marine biologist and pathologists) who assist me in protocol and treatment efforts of quarantining/prophylaxis of my fish and confirmed unfortunately there is no water conditioner that can be used safely although studies have shown the risk is greater with cupramine than chelated copper.

 

a couple other things worth mentioning based on what I've read in this thread:

- any spots on the bottom of the qt tank/ "white dots" are not the actual parasites that have fallen off. the parasite is invisible to the naked eye. the spots you will see on a fish sometimes are the trophont's insertion point surrounded by mucus, a majority being in the gills which cannot be observed.

- do not use any ammonia detoxifiers while using copper

- ammonia test kits will give you a false positive while using copper. use an ammonia alert badge to help accurately monitor ammonia level.

- no need for higher temperature water. lower temperature holds more oxygen which is much better for the fish.

- you will want to err on the side of caution, going fallow for 76 days, if your plan is to qt all your remaining fish and remove the parasite from the water column of your DT by eliminating its host

- copper might give the existing bio-filter a hit but it will not eliminate it completely. you want to start a qt with either established (at least a month or two in a display) sponge or you can let a new sponge "marinate" in a bacteria in a bottle product of your choosing for a couple/few days. given the urgency of this situation for the given presumed issue, marine velvet, time is of the essence and getting treatment to therapeutic levels same day are necessary.

Edited October 14, 2016 by monkiboy

[Origami]

a few things worth noting. josh reached out to me and I've been helping him with diagnosis with the information he has been able to provide and based on symptoms and the rough photos it did seem to indicate velvet was at play or at least ich. the timeline of fish additions (namely the gramma) also supported this hence the course for copper. he is now aware of aerosol contamination and the need for controlling ammonia. additionally, I reached out to a couple reefer friends (marine biologist and pathologists) who assist me in protocol and treatment efforts of quarantining/prophylaxis of my fish and confirmed unfortunately there is no water conditioner that can be used safely although studies have shown the risk is greater with cupramine than chelated copper.

 

a couple other things worth mentioning based on what I've read in this thread:

- any spots on the bottom of the qt tank/ "white dots" are not the actual parasites that have fallen off. the parasite is invisible to the naked eye. the spots you will see on a fish sometimes are the trophont's insertion point surrounded by mucus, a majority being in the gills which cannot be observed.

- do not use any ammonia detoxifiers while using copper

- ammonia test kits will give you a false positive while using copper. use an ammonia alert badge to help accurately monitor ammonia level.

- no need for higher temperature water. lower temperature holds more oxygen which is much better for the fish.

- you will want to err on the side of caution, going fallow for 76 days, if your plan is to qt all your remaining fish and remove the parasite from the water column of your DT by eliminating its host

- copper might give the existing bio-filter a hit but it will not eliminate it completely. you want to start a qt with either established (at least a month or two in a display) sponge or you can let a new sponge "marinate" in a bacteria in a bottle product of your choosing for a couple/few days. given the urgency of this situation for the given presumed issue, marine velvet, time is of the essence and getting treatment to therapeutic levels same day are necessary.

 

Good stuff, Marco. Thanks for chiming in.

 

It's interesting to hear that copper doesn't wipe out biological filtration. The toxicity of copper to microorganisms has been known since the late 1800's and has been used in various therapies since then. Concentration is certainly a factor. 0.08 ppm (or more) is a threshold that I'm aware of that is toxic to bacteria. This is well below common therapeutic levels needed for treating fish with copper, isn't it?

 

Seachem's cupramine will give false readings for ammonia. That's known to be because of an amine complex that they use in the product. Is that the case with other copper products that do not use a similar formulation?

 

Found this from Bob Fenner's Wet Web Media from a few years back. Maybe it provides some clarity?

 

 

 

Bob, will the use of copper actually kills off all the beneficial bacteria. <Not all, but too many of types/amounts that you need... in a long (more than a few days) treatment regimen. Hence the need/use of ammonia test kits... and ready, massive water changes, recharges of established bacteria beds Bob Fenner>

 

 

I just setup a hospital tank which contains copper solution. My question is will it kills all beneficial bacteria or should I leave the tank bare? Please advise. Thanks. >> Some types of copper are worse than others, but all will kill off beneficial microbes to a degree. I would leave the tank bare in the sense of not having carbonaceous sand, live or dead rock... but would have elements (plastic pipe parts, other hiding places) for the livestock's mental well-being. And if the animals being kept there are being coppered, I would be diligent about testing the water for free copper ion content (daily at least), keeping the dosage up, and effecting water changes, recharging of bio-media (if using such) on the first signs (ammonia testing, behavior clues) that something was amiss. Thank you! Bob Fenner

[WheresTheReef]

As I mentioned earlier, I have used cupramine in my cycled QT for all my fish. The biological has not been wiped out. I would of definitely run into issues if that were the case. I can't speak for other copper products. Searches online have had similar experiences with cupramine.

[Origami]

As I mentioned earlier, I have used cupramine in my cycled QT for all my fish. The biological has not been wiped out. I would of definitely run into issues if that were the case. I can't speak for other copper products. Searches online have had similar experiences with cupramine.

Cupramine is a special formulation that binds the copper to an organic complex. It's supposedly puts less stress on fish.  I wonder if Kordon's Copper-Aid is similar. That's what Joshifer is using. The selectivity is interesting.

[Joshifer]

I know I'm making guesses. That's all they are. Guesses. And I'm typing them just to talk about it. Nothing more. I'm not making jumps and leaps, everything I've done monkiboy was behind. I was the one who remembered prime and copper made poison before adding fish when I was told prime and copper should be okay together.

 

I'm under a lot of stress and doing the best I can not to fall apart not only about this tank but not having any work since the beginning of this hurricane. so if I talk a lot and make guesses it doesn't mean anything I'm just talking my nerves away.

 

I'm not posting anymore about this progress as it causes me more stress. Ill stay with monkiboy in PM.

 

Forgive me if I seem defensive or rude. Please delete this whole topic.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Joshifer

[Origami]

Prime was OK to treat your water for ammonia. It was never said that it was OK for copper treatment, though. Copper was among a long list of treatment options available. Prime would have no affect on many of those approaches. There's a thread in Seachem's forum that mentioned a user successfully treating his fish using Cupramine in a tank also treated with Prime. Odd? Yes. Ionic copper products seem to react differently.

 

Good luck.

[monkiboy]

Good stuff, Marco. Thanks for chiming in.

 

It's interesting to hear that copper doesn't wipe out biological filtration. The toxicity of copper to microorganisms has been known since the late 1800's and has been used in various therapies since then. Concentration is certainly a factor. 0.08 ppm (or more) is a threshold that I'm aware of that is toxic to bacteria. This is well below common therapeutic levels needed for treating fish with copper, isn't it?

 

Seachem's cupramine will give false readings for ammonia. That's known to be because of an amine complex that they use in the product. Is that the case with other copper products that do not use a similar formulation?

 

Found this from Bob Fenner's Wet Web Media from a few years back. Maybe it provides some clarity?

sorry just getting to this. the things linked from fenner seem to support what we are saying that while some bacteria may be lost, the biofilter in complete will not. nonetheless, my experience with at least a hundred or so set ups with copper that constantly run or ones up and taken down with an established biofilter is that sufficient is present to keep ammonia at bay with reasonable stock loads for the given water volume and biofilter being used (typically a sponge filter).

 

i've read and i am sure that the desired nitrifying bacteria really takes a hit upon the introduction exposure to copper. however, like most things they adapt to their environment and will multiple their numbers.

 

i have been told that kordon is a chelated copper product.

Edited October 19, 2016 by monkiboy