A sad day in my tank.....

[sen5241b]

Marine velvet's a quick killer and can run through a tank in a hurry. 

 

Not the first time I've heard of a fast die off because of Marine Velvet. With larger tanks it seems like it is cheaper to have a QT. Sorry to hear this bad news.

[monkiboy]

ben, not sure if you are aware but please be sure do NOT use prime, amquel, novaqua, or the like while using cupramine or any type of copper. it will make the solution very toxic and kill your fish. you do not need to add cupramine to your top off water but you will be adding to correct solution to your water change water.

[Reefer_Madness]

Marco - No no. I'm not much of a chemical guy.  I especially don't want to mix them, plus I did some research.  Basically the rule is that you only use copper.  Don't mess with the salinity.  Don't use Prime or any other chemicals other than antibiotics.  Apparently the Prime intensifies copper/Cupramine and basically poisons your fish.  If my ammonia gets high, I will do a water change with exactly the same parameters as I am taking out (minus the bad stuff). 

 

Thanks for the heads up though.

[monkiboy]

you got it!

 

get an ammonia badge and daily large water changes will be your friend. seeding your sponge with dr.tims or similar for a few hours prior to circulation/use will greatly increase its effectiveness in my experience as well in the filter's capabilities at handling the bioload.

[Rob A]

If you're setting up a QT you may already know this, it's crazy hard to keep the pH up in a bare tank with no rock or sand, so be prepared.

[Reefer_Madness]

If you're setting up a QT you may already know this, it's crazy hard to keep the pH up in a bare tank with no rock or sand, so be prepared.

Is pH something I need to worry about?

[Rob A]

I can't remember if there are issues for the fish if the pH gets too low, but I think if it's too low, say 4 or 5, it can cause some kind of problem. Without the buffering action of rock and sand it can drop fairly quickly . I seem to remember mine dropped to 4 or 5 before I realized it. Then, when doing water changes to manage waste, etc, you can cause a rapid increase in the pH which is just stressful for the fish. There are people on the board who are real good with the chemistry aspect of things hopefully somebody will chime in.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Rob A

[Origami]

yes, you're exactly right sir but further detail should be provided on copper solution as well if going down that route. it's not a bad idea and lowering the temperature along with the specific gravity will reduce the metabolic demands on the sick fish. thing is with copper treatment though, I haven't had much success going below 1.019 for reasons described above in my earlier post so was wondering at what levels and SG you did have success at if suggesting both as it can become toxic quickly and thereby outweighing the advantages of the lowered SG in the first place.

Marco, it's been a long time since I've had to use Cupramine treatment, so I can't say exactly what the numbers were. I do recall that I lost 1 of 3 fish that were in QT at the time (Mr. Coral specials). Anyway, I came across a thread similar to this one on Seachem's site that talked of a similar case and treatment. Maybe it has some value for future reference.

(Oh, and I was probably running hypo at  around 1.015 back then.)

[Reefer_Madness]

so the list of fish alive below is accurate?

2 chalk Bass

1 melanarus Wrasse

1 christmas Wrasse

1 purple dartfish

 

Just saw my Assessor come out of a rock! He looked healthy and no symptoms that I could see. Typically he doesn't hide though and he's been hiding for about 4-5 days. There is no way I'll catch him with a net. Picking up a fish trap tomorrow. Couldn't catch either of the Chalk Bass tonight. That's the other reason for the trap. One CB was letting a cleaner shrimp pick at him. Both are acting/looking normal though and eating. Not hiding......except when they see the net!!

[davelin315]

Don't be fooled by what appear to be healthy fish - often you will see what looks like a light at the end of the tunnel as the fish seem to be regaining health but then it comes back with a passion.  I lost all of my fish years ago to what I believe to be velvet or brook.  It was a slow and painful process and often by the time you catch it, the fish are too far gone for treatment as it may result in their death from the stress of the treatment itself.  Be careful as well because different treatments will affect them in different ways and some treatments will exacerbate the symptoms.  I would suggest doing a scraping of a dead animal to see if you can actually see what is on there.  Get hold of a copy of Noga's book on disease as well and do some comparisons.  If you don't have access to one I do have an electronic copy and could help you look for the actual disease itself.  The officers also have access to a copy as I shared it with them previously for their use.  I can't provide you with a copy of it but if you live close you could look through it (same for the officers if one is close and is willing to let you look through it).

[Reefer_Madness]

I just want to thank everyone that has responded with positive words and advice.  I didn't write back to everyone individually, because I am kind of at a loss for words.  Killing my reef buddies is not a good feeling to have.  I know they are just animals but they all had names in my tank and personalities. 

 

RIP

Foxy (One spot foxface)

Scooter boy (Mandarin)

Gator (Cherub Angelfish)

Bonnie and Barnie (Bicolor blennies)

Grandma (Royal Gramma)

Sassafras (Royal Flasher Wrasse)

[YHSublime]

Sorry to hear, Ben.

 

Do you have an action plan for the remaining fish? Have you decided to do a full QT? I don't know if you had time to search through that thread I posted up, but I was also overwhelmed, and it became so much easier once I just did it. The hardest part is deciding what you're going to do, and then sticking to it. 

[Reefer_Madness]

Sorry to hear, Ben.

 

Do you have an action plan for the remaining fish? Have you decided to do a full QT? I don't know if you had time to search through that thread I posted up, but I was also overwhelmed, and it became so much easier once I just did it. The hardest part is deciding what you're going to do, and then sticking to it.

It takes its toll on you. So, I have my 10g QT setup with Furan 2 and Cupramine (.3) Two Wrasses in there. Having trouble catching the Dartfish and Chalk Bass. Fast suckers!! I have a trap in the DT now so I will probably catch them tonight or tomorrow. I feel Like Elmer Fudd with my string attached to the door.

[Reefer_Madness]

Ok I'm back.

 

Here's what I have setup:

10g tank with salinity at 35

PVC fittings for hiding places (no rock or sand)

Small cheap Deep Blue LED gooseneck

50w heater set to 78.

Cupramine at .3

Turan 2 dosed per directions.

Fluval Power Filter with the carbon removed. It has a filter sponge and BioMax bio rings. I soaked the sponge and rings in Dr Tim's One and Only for a couple of hours.

Powerhead circulating water

Ph is increased to 8.2 to match tank.

Ammonia wheel to watch levels

I have an air stone, but it looks like I am getting enough O so I'm not using it.

 

Ok. Now what? I know to do water changes with the same parameters and medicine as I am taking out, but how often? Not sure since this is a non-cycled tank. Do I just wait for the ammonia to increase and knock it back down with a WC?

 

Next question is about the copper/Cupramine. I read that it degrades with time. I understand that to mean I need to re-dose. Common sense would say I should just test and watch my copper levels, when it goes down, just add more. Is that the correct way of thinking? Or should I just do a 50% water change every X amount of days and make that my re-dose?

 

Input on a regiment would be appreciated greatly.

 

Also what copper dosage is "therapeutic"? I'm at .3 now.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Reefer_Madness

[monkiboy]

Ok. Now what? I know to do water changes with the same parameters and medicine as I am taking out, but how often? Not sure since this is a non-cycled tank. Do I just wait for the ammonia to increase and knock it back down with a WC?

 

Next question is about the copper/Cupramine. I read that it degrades with time. I understand that to mean I need to re-dose. Common sense would say I should just test and watch my copper levels, when it goes down, just add more. Is that the correct way of thinking? Or should I just do a 50% water change every X amount of days and make that my re-dose?

 

 

Also what copper dosage is "therapeutic"? I'm at .3 now.

.3-.5 is therapeutic. you are better off to keep at .5 as if you break below therapeutic you must start over from day 1. the media may absorb more than anticipated in that volume of water so perhaps remove them if it is an issue. the sponge soaked prior with dr tims should suffice and your water changes to keep ammonia in check. with the bioload of the fish which is about medium-high'ish for a 10g I would be doing at least 50% water changes daily but monitor daily and even hourly if you can. there can not be any ammonia present at any time. use that ammonia badge as a last resort. do gradual water changes with cupramine dosed water if you can to ease the shock and maintain stability. do not wait for any ammonia to present itself for a water change. do them proactively. remove uneaten food immediately and do not allow it to decompose. any pvc in tank move and make sure there is no dead fish or uneaten food there either from time to time throughout the day. test with the same manufacturer's test kit of the copper you are using. so in your case you are using cupramine use the sea chem copper test kit and test frequently especially with the sponge and the ceramic media maybe three times a day and see how much change and absorption goes and develop a routine that works for your set up. you cannot drop therapeutic levels. the most important is water quality, agitate the surface of the water with a power head, and keep cupramine in therapeutic levels, and keep the tank covered lest you lose a fish through all this work simply to a jumper. g;luck sir!

[Reefer_Madness]

good luck sir!

One more question. How should I expect the fish to behave? Initially they act panicked and then the slow down and act like they are dying.

 

Check out the Christmas Wrasse in the video. FYI the white dots are on the glass not on Saint Nick.

 

https://vimeo.com/148792642

[monkiboy]

how should they react during treatment onset? during treatment in general? during a freshwater dip? what is the video showing exactly?

[davelin315]

Are you sure that it's velvet or brook?  Those fish in the video seem to look OK.  Brook and velvet have a tendency to kill everything in your tank before you know it.  Once it has taken hold and gotten to the point of killing fish it seems like more often than not they all die.  

[Reefer_Madness]

That's my wrasse in the QT tank. Normally he swims all the time. Now he is just sitting on the bottom and sometimes he turns sideways like he is dead. But he is alive and has been for 3 days.

[sen5241b]

Just curious but how long should you let a tank go with no fish so the Marine Velvet dies off? With ich I think its 8 weeks.

[monkiboy]

Just curious but how long should you let a tank go with no fish so the Marine Velvet dies off? With ich I think its 8 weeks.

for marine velvet it's six weeks and for ich, 76 days. if doing it and unsure of symptoms it is best to go with the longer running course of fallow period to better one's chances of success than assuming there was no ich in the system and going for the shorter time period.

[WishNewFish]

My 2 cent experience with QT/Hospital tank:

 

1. Always keep the tank covered since its a smaller tank with more fish in it, they are more prone to carpet surf (my purple dottyback jumped out of the tank when I kept my lid open for 15 mins since temp inside the tank got to 80F)

2. Having a egg crate like partition within QT is advised if there are bigger/aggessive fish. (eg: My small yellow tang killed two clowns and cardinal in Hospital tank due to small space, I have 1 small yellow tang, 2 small clowns and 1 cardinal in 10g)

[davelin315]

Mine has been fallow for several years now.  I think the velvet or brook I had is dead.