Still not over the hump ?!

[Folta]

:wall: :wall: :wall:

 

 

This is getting extremely frustrating. The orange digitata and stag that I transferred over from the 55 (that I got at the last meet) are not doing well. The stag is dead - went completely white over 2 days, after I put it in (I put it in a little bit after the orange digitata seemed to be doing ok). The orange digitata, lately, has been lightening up... still putting out polyps, but the base orange color has been fading away. And today, its missing some 'flesh' to its side!

 

Tank is a 180 gallon (standard size 6' x 2' x 2')

Sump is 75 gallon, divided into 3 chambers

All water is RO/DI, for both top off and water changes

Have done my regular water changes

 

Lighting:

2 racks of Tek light fixtures, each rack is 6 bulbs, 39 watts per bulb, 3 foot length bulbs, total of 468 watts.

8 bulbs are on a timer and are on from 4 pm to 11 pm

4 bulbs are switched on manually by me from 7 pm to 11 pm

3 aquablue +, 2 actinic, 1 daylight per side

 

Flow:

Return from sump is by a reeflo dart (3600 gph at 0 head)

2 seio 2600's in the tank (2600 gph each)

 

Water Parameters:

Ammonia: 0

Nitrites: 0

Nitrates: 0

Alkalinity: 7.6

Calcium: 325

pH: 8.3

Salinity 1.026 (usually 1.025-1.026)

Magnesium: unknown (no test kit yet, this is suspicion to me as to why I can't seem to get my alk up)

Temp : 80.0 degrees, max swing 0.1 degrees.

 

Top off:

Kalkwasser (with RO/DI) to replace all evaporation water. Yes, I don't know why my alk is only 7.6 and calc only 325 with doing this.

 

Water changes:

All water changes are done using RO/DI water and Instant Ocean salt. Water is mixed in a bin overnight. This water is added to the sump, and 10 minutes later I extract the same amount from the sump. (I add the water to the chamber that is closest to the dart, and extract from the side that the water comes down from the display tank). Done about once a week, sometimes a few weeks inbetween if I'm busy.

 

Livestock:

Snails, hermits, crabs... all doing absolutely wonderful.

Fish, doing absolutely wonderful. Great color! Playful, look happy, all eat well, etc.

Zoanthids and mushrooms: seem to be doing ok. More and more of the zoanthids that I put in initially are opening up.

SPS: Almost all dead. Most things die within a few days of being in my system. Stag that I put in a few weeks ago died after a couple days. Orange digi is fading away, and today I saw a part 'missing flesh'. The hydnopora I added on day 2 is still struggling to stay alive. Has not lost any flesh in about a month, and a few polyps seem to finally be coming out.

LPS: Only had a couple that I put in day 1. Dead.

 

Filtration:

Live rock for biological filtration. Same amount of liverock that was in the 55, however the bioload has actually been reduced since then (corals dying) if anything, so I don't see that as an issue.

MR-2 Skimmer in sump, fed by a mag 18. Mag 18 sits in far right chamber (after the baffles, the chamber where water is pumped back up to the display from), skimmer is in center chamber.

 

I'm getting extremely frustrated with this. I still have my 55 gallon tank up. I run the MH's on a random basis over that, there is no heater, barely any flow (one maxijet 1200), temp is probably in lower 70's... basically I would think things would be going downhill fast. But NO! I have a few soft corals in there, xenia, pocillipora, even a milli - and they are all doing ok!! The water I use to put in this tank still for evap (I don't even dose it with kalk) is the same I use on the 180.

 

I'm really just so frustrated with this right now... the 180 has been up and running for a few months now, and I'm still having so much trouble with the corals, and I just don't know whats wrong! :wall:

 

The only things I used to add to the 55 that I've never done with the 180 are:

Seachem marine buffer (used to use it with every top off and water change)

One time dose of red slime remover to eliminate cyanobacteria. Worked beautifully, and the corals all showed their best after that.

 

Ok, reef gurus... help me out! I do not want to give up!

[dhoch]

Get your alk and calcium up.

 

Get some tubro calcium and baking powder and start dosing it...

 

When mine dips too low I have trouble with SPS rtn'ing

 

Dave

[dbartco]

It must be the miracle T5's !

 

 

Sorry couldn't resist. Take Dave's advice and get those params up.

[Folta]

I actually have some of that turbo calcium. I added a dose as recommended on the container, and I"ll keep up with that in addition to the kalkwasser until my calcium is around 400... then I'll use it as needed to maintain that level (if I can get it up there). Alk I want to get up to around 10, but to get that up I think I'll have to find a way to up my magnesium level.

 

I got out my container of Marine buffer, and on the side it says it 'replaces trace elements including...... magnesium.... ' so..maybe when I was dosing that last year on m 55, it was enough to allow the alk to stabilize higher (it was in the 8's). Should I dose it as well for now? If not, what else should I do to get my alk up, as the kalk just doesn't seem to be doing enough.

[flowerseller]

I often find that with the addition of turbo calcium, my ALK takes a hit so be observant.

Mix up a lighter dose until disolved and put the TC down your overflow to combine in your sump before returning the the main tank.

If you use Kents buffer, pay close attention for a powder coating and stop additions as soon as you see it.

You may notice it on the tank/sump sides and on any plastic material first.

 

As a side note:

What is the actual history of the sand you added and what is it's true composition?

If I remember, it was dry, you got it used, but rinsed it before adding?

[Folta]

Yeah, it was the sand that mike clownfish used. He had emptied his tank of fish, water, etc, but the sand was still in the bottom. We scooped it out, and I rinsed it then added it to the tank.

 

 

I haven't decided if I want to add the buffer... what about miracle mud? Doesn't that add trace elements including magnesium?

[flowerseller]

single post

[Grav]

Water quality, light and flow are the 3 big factors.

 

What is the light like on the 55? if you have much more light in the big tank than where they are coming from you could be "burning" the corals. If so, add them lower and slowly move them up. Also 5 blue bulbs and one white on each side seems out of whack, maybe add more 10k color bulbs?

 

Too much flow? not enough?

 

hope that helps

[Guest Leishman]

Do you have a grounding probe on the 180? There may be a stray electric current in the system.

[flowerseller]

Tim,

Read above post.

That's an idea I would have missed until now.

 

Nice going RIK...........

[Folta]

I own a grounding probe (thanks for that too, clownfish), but I don't have it in the water. I'll have to add that.

 

As far as the lighting, the actinics are the 'blue' bulbs, the 'aquablue plus' bulbs are actually at about a 11,000 k color. When on alone they look similiar to my 10,000K MH's.

 

The actually lighting is a little less, if anything. I have a pair of 250 watt 10,000k MH's over the 55, about 8" off the water. Things in the 180 are all low, as I don't have any rockwork stacked high.

[Eve]

Tim - I'll make some assumptions. You rinsed all the sand you used but you used a good bit of seed sand - and you also used the vast majority of the water from your previous (cycled) tank. There is no possibility that this tank could still be cycling?

[Lee Stearns]

Just a note Tim. I agree get the electrical probe in the tank.

I did not see Phosphate reading- In my limited experience that is a major player with many of the SPS.

I do not think that the Magnesium is an issue as the IO being balanced- it would take months before your water dropped to critical magnesium levels. Alk and PH are the next two things that I would work on making stable- Calcium every one pushes, but in reality I have found the sps will do well in the lower Calcium numbers- just not grow as fast.

And last stay with it- just takes small tweaks and time.

Regards,

Lee

[Folta]

Eve, I don't believe the tank is still cycling. It has been up for a few months now, I used alot of the water from the 55 (not all as I left some stuff in there) however it was only about 30-40 gallons that I transferred over... to a tank that is 180 gallons and a 75 gallon sump. All live rock but 2 medium pieces was transferred over as well - this originally was a combination of rock I got from fellow club members as well as a couple different stores (congressional, Dr. Macs, etc). I know some of the rock that I got from club members was cycled 4+ years prior to me getting it last year. I don't have any algae problems either.

 

I'll put the probe in my tank tonight when I get home.

 

Lee, what made me thing of magnesium as possibly being an issue was that I've seen numbers from tests people have run on freshly made IO saltwater, and mag levels were low. I also remember reading that low magnesium levels makes it difficult for the Alk to be raised. pH every time I test is 8.3, however I still need to get a pinpoint monitor to be more accurate.

 

I dosed turbo calcium last night. Also, I read more on the label of the seachem pH marine buffer that I had been using in my 55 - Seachem marine buffer - and it says that with each dose, it raises the Alk by approximately 1 meq/L. I also use seachem's buffer for cichlids on my 55 gallon cichlid tank, and have had wonderful results with that tank (no corals obviously, but live plants growing well and my fish breed regularly).

[Jon Lazar]

Tim,

 

Is there anything else you've changed when transitioning from the 55 to the 180 that could be casuing your problems? Something as simple as using a new thermometer or refractometer that might be "off"? A "bad" batch of salt mix? I've had chronic alk problems in the past with alk way below NSW, and never had coral health problems as bad as you've described.

 

Jon

[Folta]

Jon,

 

thats why I'm befuddled. I used the same measuring devices on both the 55 and the 180, and was trying to match parameters before I transferred anything over. I guess its possible I got a 'bad' batch of salt, I bought two of the 150g pails of salt (IO) and have only used those since setting up this tank. I've had much worse 'swings', so to speak, in the 55 than what I've noticed in the 180.. so I just don't get it.

 

Dosed turbo calc again, as well as topped off with kalkwasser like usual. Also preparing another water change.

[Eve]

I still have my 55 gallon tank up. I run the MH's on a random basis over that, there is no heater, barely any flow (one maxijet 1200), temp is probably in lower 70's... basically I would think things would be going downhill fast. But NO! I have a few soft corals in there, xenia, pocillipora, even a milli - and they are all doing ok!!"

 

Have you tried moving some of those to the new tank to see what happens? Obviously they're rather bulletproof.

[Folta]

Hey Eve, yeah I have. The orange digitata was transferred, and is slowly fading away, and the tri colored stag I transferred which died in a couple days. Both were doing excellent in the 55

[fishface]

I'm the mud nut!

 

I don't know if that would help here to address your problem, but it had a lot of benefits to me. I kept a 55 with a mud sump, skimmerless with 2 pair of marroon clowns, a kole tang, a blenny and an urchin, so it's low stocking. Also, mostly softies, with a large open brain, a meat coral and a small milli.

 

But the tank was stable and has a lot of life, Halimeda that grew spontaneously, amphipods that pop up and ran around and copepod float in the dead spots in the corners. I can't necessarily attribute that to the mud, but this tank has had no maintence other than dosing calc -even evap replacement is automatic. I let the 260pcs light run past their life recently and the milli just died after 1 year.

 

I suggest that you continue tweaking, but convert now. The Walt Smith is true marine mud. Secondly, they have a calcium -kind of a mud too. You spoon into tank or sump, but I only just started using it, so I have no info on that yet. Anyway, if you want mud, then I would make the change/addition now, then continue troubleshooting.

And I believe that the mud take some time to kick in. So after the changeover, sit back for 2 weeks. Not for the tanks sake, just for your own head.

 

FF

[Jon Lazar]

Tim,

 

I'm befuddled too. Sure, sometimes corals die for what seems like no reason, but to have all these corals die or do so poorly convinces me that something fundamental is wrong. If you had kids, I'd say look for pennies thrown into the tank when they were making wishes, or someone wacky like that.

 

Jon

 

 

Jon,

 

thats why I'm befuddled. I used the same measuring devices on both the 55 and the 180, and was trying to match parameters before I transferred anything over. I guess its possible I got a 'bad' batch of salt, I bought two of the 150g pails of salt (IO) and have only used those since setting up this tank. I've had much worse 'swings', so to speak, in the 55 than what I've noticed in the 180.. so I just don't get it.

 

Dosed turbo calc again, as well as topped off with kalkwasser like usual. Also preparing another water change.

[Jon Lazar]

Tim, YGPM

[quazi]

Tim,

 

You do not mention any chemical filtration. I would try polyfilter or chemipure for a while. It sounds to me like you have a chemical imbalance that may not show up on any test kit you are using.

 

I certainly won't hurt!

[Folta]

Hey Jon,

 

thanks for that PM, you had a few good insights there. I considered trying the swap thing, however a few things have kept me from doing it so far; little containers will cause larger salinity changes, different flow then the rest of the tank (ie. could cause a problem in its own), and also the corals I had in the 55 were growing towards the 180 when I was running the t5's over it.

 

Quazi,

 

that is also a good thought. I actually am using a good portion of the blue polyfilter material, I have it crammed inbetween the last two baffles so some water passes through it.

 

 

 

I did another water change today. I will check parameters tomorrow when I get home from work. The tank isn't a 'total loss' as far as corals are concerned, some of the hardier ones are doing ok. I think once I get my alk and calc where I want them to be, I am going to try an LPS - hammer, or torch.. and see if it grows. I was looking at the hydnopora coral I have in there and it actually had polyp extension for the first time I've seen since adding it to the 180.

 

Here's a few pics I took tonight:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Folta]

I was trying to think about what else I could have done on the 55 that I have not done on the 180. And realized two more things:

 

I used a bag of biochemzorb, twice last year on the 55.

 

I ran a UV Sterelizer on the 55, that I have not transferred over to the 180 yet (40 watt).

 

I decided to not only dose the turbo calc, but to dose the marine buffer as well. The thought being that it added something to the water that I may be lacking for good growth of the corals.

[Folta]

Did a small water change today again (just 10 gallons, not much on 180 gallon tank wtih 75 gallon sump). Checked Alk and Calc levels:

 

 

Alk : 9.1

Ca : 370

 

 

So they are improving. This is using the recommended dose of turbo calcium, and as far as the buffer, I've been doing a reduced amount, instead of all at once.

 

Goal is 10 / 400