mling March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 I have a 156G DT and a 44G sump. My PH was 8.0 so I tried to raise it by adding Kalkwasser to the sump. I over did it and the PH started raising real fast, to 9+ in the sump I turned off the pump feeding the DT. The PH is the DT is now 8.38. I then emptied almost 30 gallons of the 44G sump and replaced it with fresh salt water. Problem is the PH in the sump is still 8.7 and I have run out of RODI water to make another water change. Is the high PH of 8.7 due to the cold temp of the new water ? My setup is such that the skimmer is in the sump and water then feeds back to the DT. Now that the skimmer is off, I am concerned that there is a lack of oxygen to the DT. I do have two power heads running so water is flowing in the DT. How long should I leave the skimmer off ? Any suggestions ? I am thinking of waiting for more RODI water and then do another large water change in the sump water, hoping to lower the PH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDRDATA March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 (edited) One thing you don't want to do is get into a see-saw of large, rapid pH swings. I don't think the temperature would make such a huge difference. I'd make sure your DT powerheads are causing some surface disturbance (for gas exchange), and it shouldn't hurt to add an airstone or two. As far as the sump is concerned, I think you would be safe adding a small amount of vinegar -- that's the safest organic acid I can think of -- to bring the pH down. Just do it a little at a time, make sure there's been full mixing/circulation, and then test. After that, then start your circulation once the pH is equalized between DT and sump. Only then do you want to work on gradually bringing the whole-system pH to whatever end value you want. In the future, you might want to have some kind of buffered product (I personally use and like Kent Marine's Superbuffer dKH, but there are others as well) on hand to help even out this kind of a swing. It keeps my pH more or less right at 8.3. Good luck! Edited March 11, 2015 by LCDRDATA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 How much vinegar should I add to 40G of water ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crob5965 March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 How much vinegar should I add to 40G of water ? I have done this before with my 90 gal with a 30 gal sump, I was sure I was going to lose everything overnight but only lost 1 Anthia that I caught and put in a QT( she jumped out) all other fish and Coral survived, I only had about 15Gal tops of RODI on hand but I think I mad upe another 10 gal of just straight tap water and did a 25gal WC that night, I have never dosed Vinegar, I use Vodka (about 5cc) I would wait for some better intel on Vinegar but I believe you can double the dose of Vinegar to vodka so 10 cc would be safe, I would do it slowly if you're not currently carbon dosing maybe 5cc of Vinegar might be good for tonight and maybe another 5cc in the morning. my tank looked like I did a WC with milk when I OD'd on Kalkwasser within 2 days everything was back to normal. This is just my experience, hopefully someone with a little more knowledge can give you better info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braden March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 I have a 156G DT and a 44G sump. My PH was 8.0 so I tried to raise it by adding Kalkwasser to the sump. I over did it and the PH started raising real fast, to 9+ in the sump Well, yeah. A Ca(OH)2 suspension is not much of a buffering agent; it's just a moderately strong base. You shouldn't add it with the goal of raising pH; that effect is mostly ephemeral. (Temporarily) raising pH is a side-effect of what it offers; one that is generally counteracted by slow addition. I turned off the pump feeding the DT. The PH is the DT is now 8.38. Slightly high, but not worrisome. It's probably dropped down quite a bit by the time you read this. I then emptied almost 30 gallons of the 44G sump and replaced it with fresh salt water. Problem is the PH in the sump is still 8.7 and I have run out of RODI water to make another water change. Is the high PH of 8.7 due to the cold temp of the new water ? No. My setup is such that the skimmer is in the sump and water then feeds back to the DT. Now that the skimmer is off, I am concerned that there is a lack of oxygen to the DT. I do have two power heads running so water is flowing in the DT. Unless your bioload is really heavy, don't worry. As long as water's circulating well, there will be plenty of oxygen. How long should I leave the skimmer off ? If what you mean is "How long should I wait before pumping this water with a really high pH into my tank?" the answer is that you should wait until the pH isn't very high anymore. Any suggestions ? Bubble CO2 in your sump. The Ca(OH)2 will precipitate out as CaCO3 and the pH will right itself. I am thinking of waiting for more RODI water and then do another large water change in the sump water, hoping to lower the PH. Dilution is another valid approach to solving the problem. In the future, use a buffering agent to raise your pH. These will raise the pH slightly and gradually and keep it at a proper level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 I added white vinegar in 30cc increments, 3 times over 30 mins. Lowered Ph from 8.87 to 8.6 to 8.47 to 8.29 in the sump. Turned on every thing and now the overall pH is 8.32 My Apex pH probe earned it's cost tonight. Thanks for the vinegar tip, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 Kind of late, but we have this thread pinned in the General Discussion forum. How to respond to a kalk overdose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s2nhle March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 How is your tank this morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 All seems fine this morning, thanks for asking. Ph has been a constant 8.28 since late last night when I resuming turning on everything, All fishes seem normal and happy but they were never really affected since pH never went past 8.4 in the DT. I do wander if I should have left everything alone when the pH was 8.0. Sometimes it is better to not fix what is not broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 PH at 8.0 is fine. Is that the low or the high for the day/night cycle? Assuming you have a controller to see of course. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCReefer1964 March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 I added white vinegar in 30cc increments, 3 times over 30 mins. Lowered Ph from 8.87 to 8.6 to 8.47 to 8.29 in the sump. Turned on every thing and now the overall pH is 8.32 My Apex pH probe earned it's cost tonight. Thanks for the vinegar tip, Here is a good read for you. Vinegar Dosing . http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium Then read this: http://web.archive.org/web/20030418110415/http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/1999/oct/bio/default.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 A pH of 8.0 is perfectly reasonable. It's within the "normal" aquarium range of 7.8 to 8.5. Unless your pH is below 7.6 or above 8.7, I'd be very careful about targeting it as a parameter that you try to control. Adding kalk to drive your pH higher is not what you add kalk for. Adding kalk is done to raise your alkalinity and calcium when they're low. A rise in pH is just a consequence of shifting the alkalinity level. Now, by adding an excess of kalkwasser, and then following it up by neutralizing some of the alkalinity with vinegar (an acid), you've effectively raised the calcium level in your tank while adding biologically available carbon (acetate from the vinegar). While it's nothing to get to wound up about right this moment, you may have disrupted the calcium alkalinity balance and may want to work to restore some of that balance over the coming weeks through water changes or by dosing only alkalinity while letting the calcium level drop through consumption. Start by looking a little into acceptable water parameters in this article. Here's something about solving calcium - alkalinity imbalances. Imbalances are not necessarily taboo that will create a big problem. It's just a stability target that is based upon the balance point in standard sea water and then extrapolated for enrichment using a ratio of 20 ppm calcium for every meq/liter (or 2.8 dKH) of alkalinity. This ratio corresponds to the ionic ratio found in calcium carbonate, the principle component of most hard coral skeletons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 PH at 8.0 is fine. Is that the low or the high for the day/night cycle? Assuming you have a controller to see of course. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk The pH graph from my Apex was showing a range high/low from day/night, i.e. sine wave.can't remember values as Apex just keep track of 1 week worth of data. Is this true or am I just not setting the Apex correctly, I am a Apex newbie even though I have had it for months. Then recently I noticed it was flat line at 7.99 to 8.0... the rest is history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 The pH graph from my Apex was showing a range high/low from day/night, i.e. sine wave.can't remember values as Apex just keep track of 1 week worth of data. Is this true or am I just not setting the Apex correctly, I am a Apex newbie even though I have had it for months. Then recently I noticed it was flat line at 7.99 to 8.0... the rest is history. It's normal. It's called a diurnal shift. pH rises during the daylight hours (because photosynthesis consumes CO2 and releases oxygen, and makes the water less acidic and raises the pH) and falls at night, when all photosynthesizers shut down photosynthesis and begin respiration (like our breathing) (which releases CO2 and uses oxygen, making the water more acidic and lowering pH). pH swings of 0.2 to 0.3 over the night / day cycle is quite normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 It's normal. It's called a diurnal shift. pH rises during the daylight hours (because photosynthesis consumes CO2 and releases oxygen, and makes the water less acidic and raises the pH) and falls at night, when all photosynthesizers shut down photosynthesis and begin respiration (like our breathing) (which releases CO2 and uses oxygen, making the water more acidic and lowering pH). pH swings of 0.2 to 0.3 over the night / day cycle is quite normal. I did what I did because I thought that it was not normal that my pH graph was a flat line instead of have a swing of 0.2 to 0.3 over the night / day cycle. Thanks for all the pointers, Tom. Now I guess I have to r]break open the shrink wrap of my Calcium and Alkaline test kits and start using it ! Yes, I'm the lazy reefer..... and too cheap to buy Calcium and Alkaline probes for my Apex if they exist ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 It definitely is not normal that it's flat-lined. You should see a sinusoidal shift between night and day. If you're using a reverse-cycle refugium, you can lessen the shift, but there's almost always a residual shift. Check first to make sure that the probe is in the water. Second, make sure your pH probe is working by calibrating it. Neptune provides instructions for how to do this. You'll need a small amount of pH 7 and pH 10 reference solutions. You can buy small bags of it at a lot of LFS's. The graphs are great to give you a sense of the "heartbeat" of your tank. I find that, over the long run, if the sinusoidal shift in pH has a downward trend, it indicates that my alkalinity is falling and that I need to compensate for this by dosing more. A word of advice: Don't dose things into your tank if you're not testing. That's a recipe for trouble. (And trouble can be very expensive in this hobby.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme March 11, 2015 Share March 11, 2015 Also.. PH probes don't last very long, possibly only a year before they go bonkers. But you may not realize it since the sine graph will be lower gradually. If you believe in accurate pH, replace often. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 I think my pH probe is ok as I did also verify the pH readings I got yesterday with my Sailfert pH test kit. I did calibrate the probes when I received them about 6 months ago. One year and you should replace your Apex probes ? Mine is not on year yet BUT when is the next WAMAS group buy for probes ? On the other hand, I understand the Neptune does not give discounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mling March 11, 2015 Author Share March 11, 2015 Also.. PH probes don't last very long, possibly only a year before they go bonkers. But you may not realize it since the sine graph will be lower gradually. If you believe in accurate pH, replace often. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk Dug up my Apex Receipt and noticed I have a Lab grade pH probe versus a non Lab grade. Would a Lab grade probe last longer ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howaboutme March 12, 2015 Share March 12, 2015 (edited) Dug up my Apex Receipt and noticed I have a Lab grade pH probe versus a non Lab grade. Would a Lab grade probe last longer ? I don't have personal experience from what I've researched they are more accurate and probably last a bit longer but not significantly. Take what I say fwiw. Edit..I meant no experience w/ lab grade probes..just to clarify. I have only used regular probes for my reef angel. Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk Edited March 12, 2015 by howaboutme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 12, 2015 Share March 12, 2015 Probes do get old and inaccurate. Sometimes they last a while. Sometimes they don't. I've had off-brand pH probes do great, being effective over 18 months and sometimes have had to throw a probe out after only six months. I've found that almost all probes get dirty and, to do best, require a light scrub on the bulb with a soft toothbrush about once a month or so. In my experience, probes drift. That is, the readings drift. That's why, if you want accuracy, you need to calibrate them from time to time. If the probe won't calibrate or hold calibration, then it's time to replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k March 13, 2015 Share March 13, 2015 +1000 on Origami advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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