Josh Roberts (decadence) palytoxin

[Origami]

Quite a story, Chelsea. Thanks for sharing it. A lot of the symptoms that you've mentioned are similar to what a group of us experienced when exposed to palytoxin. In those cases, we were pretty sure that was what we were exposed to because we had seen them and were intentionally working with them when the exposure occurred. Do you know if Josh actually confirmed that the rocks had these palys on them? Or could you have been exposed to something else? In either case, I'm glad that you all are on the mend. 

[cjeffers88]

On Monday Josh went back into the shop and looked at the rocks closely what he thought was pulsing Xenia at the time because that was all that was really visible was actually a rock that on the back side was palys galore. Here's the rock that did us in.

[zygote2k]

It's still hard to say that this was the result of palytoxin poisoning. You could have been exposed to something else that shares similar symptoms. Dehumidifier sickness and mold inhalation come to mind.

You might want to change your furnace filters as a precaution.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

I agree, its kind of odd that we havent heard of this happening before, considering all of the people who have done the same thing with palys. I am curious to the science behind how it happened because it seems as if only a extreemly small amount if any poison would be airborne. I think making sure it wasnt something else that could continue to make you sick is a very good plan.

 

Also the amount of ooison in zoas or palys is varying to what kind they are. I think i remember reading only these protopalys that spread quick are the kind with a large amount of it. The others have so little you wouldnt have to worry about anything like this happening.

[gmerek2]

I think it is very possible some of the water/toxin was nebulized by air getting sucked in a pump or even a skimmer could nebulize the toxin dispersing it throughout the house. Still a good idea to check for other sources and it's a good time to make sure a carbon monoxide detector and smoke detectors are in working order.

[cjeffers88]

There has been similar cases to ours according to poison control but it only happens 1-2 times nationally every other year. At least that's what they told us. We ruled out mold very quickly. The AC unit has been working fine since returning. That's why I asked about the rocks when everyone was sick. At the shop we don't have a dehumidifier and the "furnace" doesn't really exist. We have heat but we don't have it on. Since being back to the shop, the only thing we've changed is the pump on the tank. So it wouldn't become airborne again and we've been there all week. None of the symptoms have come back and we are all slowly getting better.

[Origami]

Palytoxin can definitely get to you through the air. It's how Steve Outlaw was affected and how I'm sure that I was affected. We were both a lot closer to the palys, though (but probably for a shorter amount of time). It doesn't take much to make you sick - just a few micrograms. 

[zygote2k]

...

Edited October 25, 2014 by zygote2k

[steveoutlaw]

You know, it's funny........when I posted my ordeal on RC I was amazed at how many people came back and said it wasn't palytoxin - and I'm sure they had much more medical experience than the ER docs and the docs from the CDC that I worked with.  All zoas and palys contain the toxin but in varying degrees.  There are many palys that contain large amounts of it and even the ones that contain smaller amounts can make you very sick.  I had the CDC evaluate the ones I was exposed to and they confirmed the presence of a large amount of palytoxin.  Also, don't get confused when talking about airborne exposure.  The CDC confirmed that stressed palys release the toxin and the it CAN be airborne of it's aeresolized in some fashion......like steam or mist from using a skimmer pump.

 

The most likely explanation is usually the right one.  You shouldn't rule other things out, but this seems pretty simple to me......the skimmer pump got the palytoxin in the air and you ingested it.

 

FWIW, I would also go to see a pulmonary doctor.  That's who I went to see and who prescribed me a steroid inhaler.  It really helps when you have a ton of coughing fits. 

[Decadence]

Thanks guys for the well-wishes and to the people who actually defended the conclusion. Palytoxin isn't a rarity, we just found a new way to be exposed to it other than boiling the rocks. If I had not been familiar with Steveoutlaw's case, I wouldn't have known what was going on. I actually was greeted originally with the same skepticism by the doctors at the hospital. Just to clear things up, this is in my commercial building, not my house. There is absolutely no humidity in the building as it is all above ground and has excellent drainage. It hadn't rained recently to my knowledge. I never thought that mold was an issue originally, I though that we had a freon leak as I have had similar symptoms from freon inhalation as I did originally at the shop before they got bad, this is why I turned off the A/C unit and went back to bed. We were sleeping above my showroom where the tanks are. I was downstairs in the room with the tank for two hours before going upstairs and going to bed. The skimmer pump that was running was a mesh modded OR3700 and is an absolute beast of a pump. Palytoxin is noted to be very hydrophilic, meaning it readily bonds to the bubbles created by the skimmer pump and raises to the top to become airborne as the bubbles pop. Mind you, this skimmer pump filled the entire 75g tank with milky white bubbled which you could not see through and there was a thick foam head on the top in places. My air heater is gas powered. The air heater has not been turned on yet for the year and the gas line is off. The hot water heater is electric. After spending three days in the hospital recovering, we went back to the shop as we were very confident in the diagnosis. I had turned off the pump, opened a few windows and turned on my commercial ventilation system before we left the shop. No new symptoms came about after being in the shop 80% of all time since the incident.

 

My symptoms were:

 

Extreme shortness of breath

Constant coughing

Near complete muscle paralysis

Uncontrollable shaking

Inability to get "warm"

An extreme fever (103.5 hours later when my symptoms were coming down)

Extreme nausea

Coughing up blood

Bloody brown mucus coming from the nose

Extreme weakness after paralysis wore off

Dizziness, almost feeling drunk

Extremely high blood pressure at first, followed by extremely low blood pressure

Extremely high white blood cell count

140+ BPM resting heart rate

Resting oxygen saturation below 75%

Craving Papa John's pizza (possibly unrelated)

Appearance of a chest infection in X-rays

 

Doctors kept telling me that I had a very bad flu. The only way that I was able to get them to dismiss that theory is when I told them that my dog was affected in addition to the rest of us at the same time. They treated my symptoms, hydrated be and ran some powerful antibiotics through my system. After I get all of my medical records, I will make a more detailed post about palytoxin and add it to the wikipedia page to help doctors in the future.

[Decadence]

To add to that post, the floor between the showroom and the nursery where we sometimes sleep is built from a single steel I-beam with braced steel cross beams. On top of the I-beams is a solid sheeting of metal spanning the entire distance, all the way up to the concrete walls. The metal is sealed to the walls. Basically, that means that the palytoxin-filled air traveled up the staircase 30ft away, through a hallway and in to the room where we were sleeping. I almost feel asleep downstairs on the couch but decided to go up because my dog was there. The concentration would have killed me. Chelsea has half of my body weight. The amount of palytoxin that I took in being downstairs as long as I was would have probably killed her. We are very lucky.

[Origami]

You're definitely very lucky, Josh. Looking over your list of symptoms, I had a bunch of them from my worst exposure (the first of my batch of incidents). I wasn't nearly as bad off as you, though - for example, I didn't crave PPJ Pizza - but had a bunch. I still remember how cold I felt and how I was shaking uncontrollably - I just couldn't get warm, though (picture fetal position in bed). Stupid thing was, I didn't want to wake my wife up, thinking it would upset her. I'm glad that you got yourself to a hospital. If you've not got it already, you may want to talk to your doctor about that steroid inhaler that Steve mentioned above. If there are any residual symptoms that I get from time to time, it's with my breathing and this feeling of tightness and inefficiency in my lungs. Otherwise, the other stuff seems to have passed.

[gmerek2]

Wow 75% on room air is extreme dangerous hypoxia. With the coughing up blood, coughing, x ray, high pulse and high BP it sounds like you got some pulmonary edema. Some fluid backed up in the lungs. Did they put you on a positive pressure ventilation mask machine? Also known as CPAP? Did you get any relief from it?

[Decadence]

Wow 75% on room air is extreme dangerous hypoxia. With the coughing up blood, coughing, x ray, high pulse and high BP it sounds like you got some pulmonary edema. Some fluid backed up in the lungs. Did they put you on a positive pressure ventilation mask machine? Also known as CPAP? Did you get any relief from it?

 

The only thing that they did was put me on oxygen which bumped me to the mid 80s. They had absolutely no idea what to do and I believe that the first round of doctors was trying to limit their exposure to me until my ebola test came back… not even joking.

 

I actually forgot to add one symptom which I was the only one to experience.. My scalp got incredibly itchy, like to the point where I could not stop scratching. That came in waves and was enough to drive me insane.

[gmerek2]

80s O2 saturation is still moderately hypoxic especially on a non rebreather mask with high flow oxygen. I would have bumped you up to CPAP. Would have helped the shortness of breath. That's crazy that they even tested you for Ebola since you haven't been to Africa or around anyone with it. Your serious signs/symptoms with no history of respiratory issues must have really scared them. My local ER doesn't have an actual test for Ebola, they have to draw blood and have the health department pick the tubes up and they test it.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk