Comparison - Radium 250/400 - Cozumel Sun / Lumenbright Large / Lumenmax Elite

[Ryan S]

Yea, definitely. I ran my 400w over my 150g DD only 6 hours per day. Without the LEDs my tank would've been dark 18 hrs/day which would've sucked!

[ridetheducati]

Tony-

 

So you think the 400w is the way to go?  

 

Do I need to add any other lighting or are the 20k radium bulbs all I need with some LED moonlight?

 

Are you running any other lighting, or are you taking  LED's down?

 

The 400w Radium is the gold standard and I have never had a need for supplemental lighting.  I do not run supplemental when I run 10k bulbs either.  However, most hobbyist do supplement with VHO, T5, or LED.  I thought about running the Blue LEDs, but the LA3 reflectors take up too much space.

[gws3]

Just got my three lumenbrights hung above the 300DD.  Running new 250w Radiums on bluewave M80 ballasts.  15" glass to water.  PAR measurements are high at bottom of tank.  In the corners at the bottom I am getting about 250 PAR.  300-350 PAR across the front edge.  However, on top of the shelfs at the top rear of the tank I am only getting 150 PAR due to spot light effect of the lumenbrights.

 

I am actually going to shift the reflectors off center and inch or two to the rear and raise them a few more inches as this will better accomodate my aquascape.  I do want corals at the top rear... but of course will not be growing any at the top front.

 

Tomorrow I will try to make time to compare the 2 weeks old 400w Radium on lumatek ballast to a broken in 250w Radium on M80.

 

I am convinced a 400w Radium is best suited for a "spread" type reflector... lumenarc, cozume sun, etc.  And the 250w Radium best suited for a "spotlight" type reflector like the lumenbright, lumenmax elite, etc.  

[gws3]

If you can manage the heat, four Radium 400w is the way.  I would only run 250w Radiums if I wanted to SLOW down the growth process.

 

I currently have 2 of 3 400w Radiums mounted as I am monitoring the heat.  Will probably mount the third MH next weekend.

 

Radium 250w - PPFD:85

Radium 400w - PPFD:147

 

That would be a LOT of light and heat.

 

Those numbers you are posting are Sanjay's, correct?

 

If so it should be noted that the 250w Radium is on 250w magnetic HQI ballast and the 400 w Radium is on 400w magnetic HQI ballast.  The 400w magnetic HQI ballast really overdrives the 400w radium, much more than an electronic ballast like a lumatek I believe.  So I believe the difference will not be quite as dramatic.  Will take some measurements tomorrow when I compare the two side by side. 

[ridetheducati]

I am convinced a 400w Radium is best suited for a "spread" type reflector... lumenarc, cozume sun, etc.  And the 250w Radium best suited for a "spotlight" type reflector like the lumenbright, lumenmax elite, etc.  

 

I agree.  Bulbs with low PPFD (less than 100) need assistance from a torch style reflector.  A 250w Iwasaki matched with a Lumenmax Elite would burn a hole through the bottom of the tank.  

 

I originally planned to use Lumenbrights, but was afraid that I would need to raise the fixtures 22" off the water surface when I only have 21" available.

[ridetheducati]

That would be a LOT of light and heat.

 

Those numbers you are posting are Sanjay's, correct?

 

If so it should be noted that the 250w Radium is on 250w magnetic HQI ballast and the 400 w Radium is on 400w magnetic HQI ballast.  The 400w magnetic HQI ballast really overdrives the 400w radium, much more than an electronic ballast like a lumatek I believe.  So I believe the difference will not be quite as dramatic.  Will take some measurements tomorrow when I compare the two side by side. 

 

Numbers are based on Sanjay's work.

 

I always run the Lumatek with the super lumen setting.  Visually, the performance is nearly identical to a PFO or Blueline magnetic HQI ballast.  The normal 400 setting on Lumatek does not overdrive the Radium or any other bulb.  I use the normal 400w setting when I run the XM.

 

And of course, I can only run Radiums for nine months.

 

Maybe the Lumenbrights will wake up the 250w Radiums, but I am confident that bulb does not perform well in a LA3 reflector.  

[ridetheducati]

For those monitoring this thread and contemplating Metal Halide, the below is a best practice...

 

Determine the Metal Halide bulb(s) you plan to use and then select the ballast and reflector.

 

1.  Bulb

2.  Ballast, and then

3.  Reflector. 

[DuffyGeos]

For those monitoring this thread and contemplating Metal Halide, the below is a best practice...

 

Determine the Metal Halide bulb(s) you plan to use and then select the ballast and reflector.

 

1.  Bulb

2.  Ballast, and then

3.  Reflector.

 

Now you tell me! .......I am totally backwards. I was looking for reflectors that fit the tank, then try to figure out which bulb to run, the see which ballast I would use to drive the bulbs.

[gws3]

I agree.  Bulbs with low PPFD (less than 100) need assistance from a torch style reflector.  A 250w Iwasaki matched with a Lumenmax Elite would burn a hole through the bottom of the tank.  

 

I originally planned to use Lumenbrights, but was afraid that I would need to raise the fixtures 22" off the water surface when I only have 21" available.

 

I'm currently at 15" and only need to go a few inches higher I believe for the spread to be right.  I think you'd be fine with 21" max.  On the other hand you had great success with the lumenarcs & 400w radium, not sure going to lumenbright would be any better. 

 

I agree the 250w would not have enough intensity in a lumenarc for SPS dominated 300DD.

 

Now you tell me! .......I am totally backwards. I was looking for reflectors that fit the tank, then try to figure out which bulb to run, the see which ballast I would use to drive the bulbs.

 

Don't worry too much about it. There's lots of good combinations. 

 

If you already have the lumenarcs... definitely go 400w radium though.  I'm a believer in driving the 250w with m80 magentic... and those ballasts are harder and harder to find.  The lumateks are easy to find though.  I'd suggest starting at 3 reflectors and adding a 4th if you want more light and can handle the heat.  At the right height the larger reflector will provide plenty of coverage.  The cozumel sun had great spread front to back on my 3' deep tank. 

 

[gws3]

I agree.  Bulbs with low PPFD (less than 100) need assistance from a torch style reflector.  A 250w Iwasaki matched with a Lumenmax Elite would burn a hole through the bottom of the tank.  

 

I originally planned to use Lumenbrights, but was afraid that I would need to raise the fixtures 22" off the water surface when I only have 21" available.

 

Forgot to mention... I have a spare lumenbright now... you are welcome to borrow it if you want to evaluate it against the lumenarcs.

[morgan175]

Well here is a question. I have a 110 high. I don't understand all the numbers. What will work using 250w bulbs 15000k. I have a current orbit with 150 dual halides double ended and not getting enough light. Looking for more light.

 

 

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[Ryan S]

Well here is a question. I have a 110 high. I don't understand all the numbers. What will work using 250w bulbs 15000k. I have a current orbit with 150 dual halides double ended and not getting enough light. Looking for more light.

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Depends what coral you have, if you're going with nice sps, the general rule of thumb I go by is:

 

0-12" depth = 150w mh

12"-24" = 250w mh

24"-36" = 400w mh

36"+ = 1000w mh?

[BowieReefer84]

For anyone looking for the Sanjay test's here it is:

http://www.manhattanreefs.com/lighting

 

I have a 14" tank and just went with a 150w de phoenix 14k and M81 magnetic hqi hamilton ballast.  Only 37ppfd test results, but plenty in a shallow tank with monti down low and sticks up high.

Edited August 24, 2014 by BowieReefer84

[gws3]

Well here is a question. I have a 110 high. I don't understand all the numbers. What will work using 250w bulbs 15000k. I have a current orbit with 150 dual halides double ended and not getting enough light. Looking for more light.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If you're running 10k bulbs 150w may be enough.  But if you want to run a higher kelvin bulb like radium or phoenix, or some other 14k/15k, I'd definitely go 250w on that tall of a tank.  On my 90 I run 250w radium on M80 in lumenmax elites.  It is a lot of light for the corals at the top center (about 800 par) but they don't have any issues once acclimated.

[gws3]

Pics of the 400w Radium / Lumatek 400 on the left and 250w Radium / Bluewave M80 on the right.

 

PAR: Values in the middle and top were as expected.  Values at the bottom along the front edge were a bit odd.  I double and triple checked these.  I'd expect a symmetric pattern, 400 was centered in reflector, 250 slightly to the rear as it is too short to adjust all the way to the center.  Both bulbs nipple up.  The 180 reading was the real odd ball.  Neither the rock work or the brace is very close to obstructing the light.  I don't have an explanation.

 

The 400 is brighter in comparison to the 250 than the pics indicate.  Extremely bright in the center, the 400 really shows the spotlight effect. 

 

COLOR: Relative to each other the 400 is pinkish and the 250 is more icey blue, with almost a greenish tint. Hard to tell which I prefer, possibly the 400, but they are very similar.  It's also very hard to evaluate in a tank that doesn't have anything colorful in it yet. 

 

 

Pics at different exposures:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DuffyGeos]

i know your tank is a 300DD, so what are those dimensions? Especially the depth?

 

Another factor i may have is the height above the tank. I thinkI can only get the bottom of the reflector about 9" above the tank. That is one reason I am debating on the 250w Radium, and the tank is only 24" deep.

[ridetheducati]

i know your tank is a 300DD, so what are those dimensions? Especially the depth?

 

Another factor i may have is the height above the tank. I thinkI can only get the bottom of the reflector about 9" above the tank. That is one reason I am debating on the 250w Radium, and the tank is only 24" deep.

 

72Lx36Wx27H

[ridetheducati]

Graham,

 

Are you running the Lumantek on super lumens?

[DuffyGeos]

Graham- what are your tank dim?

[gws3]

i know your tank is a 300DD, so what are those dimensions? Especially the depth?

 

Another factor i may have is the height above the tank. I thinkI can only get the bottom of the reflector about 9" above the tank. That is one reason I am debating on the 250w Radium, and the tank is only 24" deep.

 

What Tony said regarding dimensions.  How much height do you have total above the tank?  Reflector height varies quite a bit... lumenmax elite is only about 5" tall, the larger ones are about 9". 

 

You definitely want a spread type reflector if you are very heigh limited. 

 

Graham,

 

Are you running the Lumantek on super lumens?

 

No, I left it on the normal setting.  If I change it to super lumens a reading of 600 increases to 630... an increase of 5%

 

 

 

I realized one reason contributing factor the the asymmetric readings is that the interior length of the tank is only 70" and my reflectors are spaced at 24".  So the ones on the ends are slightly off center to the outside.  Probably a good thing as there is not overlap at the ends so this probably evens things out.

 

[gws3]

I think I have changed my mind enough times and finally found something to stick with for a bit.

 

250w Radiums on M80 on the left and right, 400w radium on lumatek in the middle.  Reflector 16" above water (glass to water surface) and 1.5" offset to rear to accomodate shelves at the back wall.

 

It blends well and creates a slight gradient across the tank, drawing the eye to the center.

 

Now I need to go work on all the chores I have been putting off all weekend tinkering with reef lighting.

 

Edited August 24, 2014 by gws3

[ridetheducati]

Duff,

 

What is the distance from the water surface to the top of your canopy/ceiling?  In my example, there are 28" from water surface to the mounting point on the ceiling.  The LA3 is 9" tall so worst case, I can mount that reflector bulb 21" off the water.

 

To fully support the width (36") of a 300DD tank the Elites and Lumenbrights mounting height probably starts at 16-18" off the water.  I seen a set of Elites over a 300DD and the guy had to raise the reflectors to 20" to minimize the hot spot and even out the spread.  I was surprised and impressed with the Elite reflectors ability to punch down low. 

[DuffyGeos]

Duff,

 

What is the distance from the water surface to the top of your canopy/ceiling?  In my example, there are 28" from water surface to the mounting point on the ceiling.  The LA3 is 9" tall so worst case, I can mount that reflector bulb 21" off the water.

 

To fully support the width (36") of a 300DD tank the Elites and Lumenbrights mounting height probably starts at 16-18" off the water.  I seen a set of Elites over a 300DD and the guy had to raise the reflectors to 20" to minimize the hot spot and even out the spread.  I was surprised and impressed with the Elite reflectors ability to punch down low. 

 

The tank is 96" long, 30" wide  and 24" deep. The distance from the water surface to the ceiling will be 24.5". The distance for the top of the tank to the ceiling is 23". The reflectors are 9" tall and 19.5" x 19.5". I have 4  20" x 18.5" openings on top with 4.5" braces between them. I was thinking of hanging each light over each opening (as you suggested), with a track system attached to the ceiling so I could move the whole lighting system out of the way for service. I would think the track system would have to be 5"--6" in height, then with the 9" fixture,and 3"+/- of hanging space would give me 5" off the tank and 6.5" off the water. This is why I was thinking of 250w vs. 400W. I thought the 400w may be too close to the top of the tank. I am planning on running an air duct at one end of the tank to blow air across the top of the tank, but I don't think it will move the full 8', maybe just 3'-4'+/-.  I am also  going to run a chiller, and I have an exhaust vent for the entire room to reduce humidity and heat. I will probably run some type of fans over the top of the tank to aid in cooling things down.

 

I will only have 5.25" of tank on each side of the reflectors. Since I have viewing on both sides of the tank, I will not have coral or rock anywhere closer then 4" to any side of the tank. So I really don't need any more spread besides the width of the reflector.

 

Is this going to work?

Edited August 24, 2014 by DuffyGeos

[gws3]

Brace all of the reflectors together with some aluminum extrusion.  Then you could build your track system between the reflectors, with some heavy duty drawer slides or something.  I don't think you want to limit yourseld to 5" between reflectors and the top of the tank.  I think there is too little distance between tank and lights to run 400s... you're going to transfer a lot of heat.  That close to the water you may even get away with 250s in a wide reflector... especially if you put 4 over 8'.

 

Lookup Lasko Blower 4900.  I used to use it to cool my system.  It's a centrifugal fan, not an axial fan.  Like what is used in your HVAC.  It'll easily push air from one end of your 8' tank to the other.  Just be prepared to deal with the humidity... it will evaporate a lot of water.

[BowieReefer84]

Graham/Tony,

How many hours a day do you run your halides?