ctenophore May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Sure, there is far more plankton in the ocean. Those nutrients are bound up in living things, not free in the water. Like soil in a rainforest. Only a few inches deep, everything else is bound up in trees. Both reefs and rainforests are high productivity "nutrient deserts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Rob, I would tend to agree that the water is the culprit, but I think that all of the guesses are just that, guesses. I would second Justin's suggestion and change out a large volume of water, all that you can. The decline of all of all of those different corals at the same time seems to be more of a contaminant problem rather than a cleanliness issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaddc May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Some light reading to help everyone. http://books.google.com/books?id=SX5hw1JnNV4C&pg=PT124&dq=great+barrier+reef+7.+primary+production&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B3FlU7jPEbStsATnxYGQBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=great%20barrier%20reef%207.%20primary%20production&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraffitiSpotCorals May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 I would do the largest water change you can, all at once. No such thing as "too clean" water imo. Reefs where these things live have almost zero free nutrients, even in lagoons. Something is probably wrong with water chemistry (which could include bacterial flora populations and their metabolites) that the test kits are not showing you, and a big change will help reset whatever the problem is to normal levels. Can you explain "bacterial flora populations and their metabolites" for slow people like me? Rob, how quickly did the phosphates drop from 1.0 to .03? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraffitiSpotCorals May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Rob, I would tend to agree that the water is the culprit, but I think that all of the guesses are just that, guesses. I would second Justin's suggestion and change out a large volume of water, all that you can. The decline of all of all of those different corals at the same time seems to be more of a contaminant problem rather than a cleanliness issue. Are you saying that the dying corals are contaminating the tank or a contaminant was the cause for the corals dying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaddc May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Can you explain "bacterial flora populations and their metabolites" for slow people like me? Rob, how quickly did the phosphates drop from 1.0 to .03? Flora is the general word for non-animal life. So the flora on the rocks work out the N cycle. The Flora on the biopellets consume NO3 and PO4. The Flora allow your fish and coral (the fauna) to survive. We use Flora because there are many different types of bacteria in our tanks. And bacteria tank from tank to tank vary. So we can just say flora to simplify. Metabolites are to bacteria as feces and urine are to fauna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaddc May 3, 2014 Share May 3, 2014 Are you saying that the dying corals are contaminating the tank or a contaminant was the cause for the corals dying? It could be both in a feed back loop. I would normally advocate for a water change. It is always the simplest solution. The problem here is that Rob is working on a 300 gallon tank. A 50% change is a 150 gallon change and that sounds impracticable, let alone more than that. I want to be clear that my suggestion is not that the water is too clean (obviously it is not). My suggestion is that there is too much competition for limited resources. And the LPS are losing. I think of it as bringing 10 cupcakes when there are a dozen people at the party. Two people are going to lose out on a delicious cupcake. More so if someone is big jerk and eats two. This is like Rob's tank since there are a lot of fish and a lot of food is introduced into the system. Saying the water is too clean is saying that no one brought cupcakes at all. This is a system where food is purposely withheld (some people feed once a week) and skimming, water changes, and biopellets/dosing are all aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 It should take far longer for the corals to start dying off due to malnutrition. Mushrooms tend to shrink down before they let go of the rock and LPS will typically shrink down and potentially bail out. Sounds like it is all happening at once and unless Rob has a variety derived from lemmings, it points to contaminants. Dying corals don't help, but the levels are constant and pretty good so they don't seem to be compounding the issue. Again, I would point to something in the water... Look for foreign objects that could have fallen in or a cleaning crew that is perhaps spraying aerosols near the tank. Could be just about anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevnjeep May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 Idk if this helps but a few years ago I got a disease from a wild Aussie coral and it did the same thing. But when all that was left was skeleton it wasn't white it was hot pink. Idk if that is what you have but I found no info on it anywhere and it killed everything nonmatter what I did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 It sounds like a positive feedback loop or "downward spiral" type problem, as mentioned above. Something initially kicked it off, maybe a bit too much nitrate, maybe a pathogenic bacteria, or an external contaminant. Now corals are dying, and contributing to poor conditions. The only way to break this is very aggressive filtration and large water change. Some aggressive carbon like rox 0.8 might help too. But since we don't know what's causing the problem, it's hard to say what the right filtration remedy is. But we can be reasonably certain the problem's in the water, so getting rid of the water is going to be the best course. Rob, do you have access to a 300 gal square tank like my RO/DI storage tank? We used to have a spare out at the shop, not sure if it's still there or not. You need a 3/4 ton class pickup truck (or 2000lb capacity trailer) to haul it around full of water though. This is how I approached problems like this when I did aquarium maintenance in Florida before I moved up here. Drive up to the site, run a 1" flex hose in the door, hammerhead pump on an inverter. 300 gallons out, 300 gallons in. It was easy and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 When these mysteries are posted it often seems to be due to a heater. I remember a spate of them a year ago. But you aren't seeing any metal signs so maybe something isn't dropping current into the water. Since this is a maintenance tank is it possible that someone local is doing something ignorant or malicious with your tools you might use at the location or with the tank itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 I would do a large water change and take the pellets off line rather than doubling the feeding. Since we don't know exactly what the problem is, adding a lot of food presumes that the corals are starving and has the possibility of killing the tank with too much food and waste if the problem is not starvation. I also have a hard time believing starvation since he has readable levels of phosphate and nitrate. The biopellets could be starving the tank OR they could be doing something else. Taking the biopellets off line addresses both of those issues at once with out the danger of massively overfeeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k May 4, 2014 Author Share May 4, 2014 (edited) sorry- can't do that kind of operation in an office building on K street. I can unplug the heater- it's a 400w Titanium JBJ but no apparent shocks when I stick my hand in the water- cuts on hands seem to be great attractors of stray current. I'm thinking I need to send the tank water and source water (endless springs) off to be tested. I'll turn off the reactors on Monday and talk to the cleaning crew about the use of aerosols- although aerosols usually make a skimmer go volcano style- this isn't happening. Haven't lost a single fish in 9 months though. I can do 50g w/c at any given time using bottled water- any larger would require additional water to be brought on site. R/O is out of the question because building has ridiculously low water pressure and even with a booster pump, could only achieve 30 psi. Edited May 4, 2014 by zygote2k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 Rob, I would suggest a cation-anion filter for your freshwater. DC water presents many difficulties and is very unhealthy for aquariums unless filtered sufficiently. We had a large carbon and zeolite system to cleanse water before it even hit the RO/DI. Perhaps reach out to Phil as he deals with city water as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore May 4, 2014 Share May 4, 2014 A properly functioning booster pump generates ~80 psi on a 75gpd membrane regardless of source pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k May 5, 2014 Author Share May 5, 2014 I use bottled water on this particular tank. No tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse May 5, 2014 Share May 5, 2014 I use bottled water on this particular tank. No tap. I'm not sure if you have checked, but some companies distill their water on copper coils. I don't know how much copper would come thru in the process, but if have seen other posts on RC with copper issues using certain bottled distiller water. Http://aquariumwatertesting.com is a good resource to give you another look at your parameters as well as checking for copper. Jesse Current Tank - 400 Gallon Mr. Saltwater Tank Designed and Built System, 300g Display, Fish Room with 55 Gallon Sump, 50 Gallon Fuge and Separate Fish and Coral Quarantine Tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave w May 10, 2014 Share May 10, 2014 Rob, has anything helped yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k June 3, 2014 Author Share June 3, 2014 AWT test results Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0.02 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.012 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L Phosphate (PO4) High 0.85 0.000 - 0.250 mg/L Nitrate (NO3) Good 3.6 0.000 - 25.000 mg/L Silica (Sio2-3) Good 0.4 0.000 - 0.500 mg/L Potassium (K) Low 200 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L Ionic Calcium (Ca) Good 218 100.000 - 300.000 mg/L Boron (B) Good 3.9 3.000 - 6.000 mg/L Molybdenum (Mo) High 0.2 0.000 - 0.120 mg/L Strontium (Sr) Good 8.4 5.000 - 12.000 mg/L Magnesium (Mg) Good 1388 1100.000 - 1400.000 mg/L Iodine (I) Low 0.02 0.030 - 0.090 mg/L Copper (Cu) Good 0.03 0.000 - 0.030 mg/L Alkalinity (meq/L) Good 3.2 2.500 - 5.000 meq/L Total Calcium (Ca) Good 380 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L Iron (Fe) Good 0.001 0.000 - 0.010 mg/L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incredible Corals June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 (edited) Probably phosphates. I have seen LPS die off at 1.0. Edited June 4, 2014 by Incredible Corals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incredible Corals June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Ugh spell check. Tried to say I have seen LPS die at 1.0 phosphates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaddc June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 +1 Your original phosphate test was 0.03 ppm and now it is 0.85 ppm -- quite a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incredible Corals June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Ugh spell check. Tried to say I have seen LPS die at 1.0 phosphates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b June 4, 2014 Share June 4, 2014 Ugh spell check. Tried to say I have seen LPS die at 1.0 phosphates. Dr Ron Shimek Phd, coral expert, has said most stonies will start getting sick at 0.25 ppm phosphates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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