sen5241b February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 (edited) Its funny how sometimes ich seems to appear in a tank even after no new livestock have been introduced. I've heard some people say that ich is always present in a given tank but it doesn't show up because of the fishes's resistance or their immune system is strong. I do not believe it. I'm thinking a source of ich is frozen foods made from salt water sources. Of course parasites can survive freezing and that's why you have to cook seafood before you eat it even if it has been frozen. Sushi is, for the most part, safe because the law requires it to be super-frozen at -6F for at least 72 hours and that temperature will kill parasites. You think the ground up fish that go into frozen fish foods for you tank are super frozen too? I doubt it. I once saw "gamma irradiated frozen food" in an LFS. Blood worms, come from a fresh water source and cannot harbor marine ich. I know frozen foods are widely accepted and used in our hobby but I'm thinking they're not worth it. Thoughts on this issue? Edited February 21, 2014 by sen5241b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 I think marine ich can not survive below frozen temperatures, so I completely disagree that the one of the sources of in our tanks ich is frozen foods. Ich can appear in a tank after no livestock has been introduced because it came come in one things like frag plugs, corals, water, cheato, but the last thing on my list would be frozen foods. JMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 Marine ich would not be able to survive frozen as Isaac said. What can happen though is you can potentially cross-contaminate when you feed your fish if you have a QT setup with sick fish, and you go to feed your display tank with the same water or food. When you feed your fish, feed your display tank first, then work down the line to the “sickest” tank. Make sure you wash your hands between each feeding so that you don’t spread disease. This also applies to any equipment that has touched your quarantine tank as well, as it should never touch your display tank water unless it has been disinfected first. More than likely ich has been in your system for awhile now. Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). This happened to me. The only cure is to act fast, catch all the fish, place them in QT, and treat them. Leaving the display fallow for 60 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flooddc February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 Here is is good article: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/ This disease is usually associated with several environmental triggers. Changes in water temperature, exposure to high levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate, low pH levels, low dissolved oxygen, and overcrowding are all factors contributing to the onset of the disease. You could lump all of these in a general category of stress, but I find it more appropriate to think of all of these as wholly unnatural conditions. In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b February 21, 2014 Author Share February 21, 2014 (edited) It is a known fact that parasites can survive freezing and reanimate. Not only that but some inverts can survive dessication and reanimate. Only super-freezing temperatures will kill parasites. From section 4.2: ... most parasites are relatively easy to destroy by holding the raw material or finished product at freezing ... below -4 oF (-20 oC) for 7 d or -31 oF (-35 oC) (internal) for 15 h http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodScienceResearch/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm094578.htm I don't hear any guarantees that fish foods have been frozen to -4F for 7 days and I doubt they have. Edited February 21, 2014 by sen5241b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 It is a known fact that Cryptocaryon irritans can survive freezing and reanimate. Is what I would like to see here, instead. I am not saying that it is not a possibility, I am just disagreeing that it is a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b February 21, 2014 Author Share February 21, 2014 Cryptocaryon irritans Is what I would like to see here, instead. I am not saying that it is not a possibility, I am just disagreeing that it is a possibility. Yes it would be good to see specifically what temperature it takes to kill Cryptocaryon irritans, but I am still not hearing a compelling argument that frozen foods are absolutely ich free. (And I am still using it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey18 February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 That FDA article is specifically referring to parasites that can affect humans. It does not seem relevant to ich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lutz123 February 21, 2014 Share February 21, 2014 I agree that they likely aren't, but I haven't heard of any cases of that causing illnesses in the tank - I hesitate to say ich because oftentimes it is misdiagnosed. The super freezing required for human consumption is likely not the same freezing process that fish food is put through (though it could be). Regular freezing, even for months, is not sufficient to kill parasites. So the correct answer is probably only to be answered by manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b February 21, 2014 Author Share February 21, 2014 I agree that they likely aren't, but I haven't heard of any cases of that causing illnesses in the tank - I hesitate to say ich because oftentimes it is misdiagnosed. The super freezing required for human consumption is likely not the same freezing process that fish food is put through (though it could be). Regular freezing, even for months, is not sufficient to kill parasites. So the correct answer is probably only to be answered by manufacturer. I'm not sure I would be so perfectly trusting of a manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&Fmgr February 22, 2014 Share February 22, 2014 FWIW I keep my sub zero freezer at -10F, since entering this hobby I've always kept it below 0F. I was told by an old school reefer that this was the only way to avoid unintentional minor thawing when preparing fish food. No science there, just anecdotal. Its always worked for me. However I think it is 100x more likely that the parasite would be introduced through an intermediary host such as mollusks, crustaceans, bivalves, hermits, and arthropods. The chance of a larval parasite just being on something that it cannot host is IME very low; frag plugs, macro, etc. Although if you purchase something from a tank that houses fish as well and happens to have a high load of parasites then your chances would most definitely be higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sen5241b February 23, 2014 Author Share February 23, 2014 FWIW I keep my sub zero freezer at -10F, since entering this hobby I've always kept it below 0F. I was told by an old school reefer that this was the only way to avoid unintentional minor thawing when preparing fish food. No science there, just anecdotal. Its always worked for me. However I think it is 100x more likely that the parasite would be introduced through an intermediary host such as mollusks, crustaceans, bivalves, hermits, and arthropods. The chance of a larval parasite just being on something that it cannot host is IME very low; frag plugs, macro, etc. Although if you purchase something from a tank that houses fish as well and happens to have a high load of parasites then your chances would most definitely be higher. Good info Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite February 24, 2014 Share February 24, 2014 Are there members with good microscopes who are willing to check various frozen foods for parasites (whether living or not moving)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanM February 24, 2014 Share February 24, 2014 Knowing just a bit about the life cycle of MV and ich I fail to see how any of the things they need to survive are provided in a frozen block of food. I asked Jan the same question a while ago, and she had some info, but can't find the thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&Fmgr February 24, 2014 Share February 24, 2014 I highly doubt theres parasites in any frozen foods. They would have to be larval to host anything other than a fish if Im not mistaken. A larval ectoparasite would not survive frezzing temps. Don't know about endo though. But again, these companies aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel for their food supplies. I think you have a real chance of developing bacteria on the frozen food. Just as if you were to continually thaw frozen human grade seafood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now