Tank emergency

[monkiboy]

I just had some glass cut to create my partitions for the refugium and baffles (for this I used the GE brand of clear silicone--in the white and gold tube). The sump was completed a week before I started the plumbing.

if the solvent is an issue, the silicone used might be another. the GE brand in white and gold is type II. type I is usually recommended between the two and comes in the red or blue and silver tube. type I is always rumored to carry mold inhibitors that would not fare a reef tank well.

 

from a post on RC from user uncleof6:

The MSDS for Silicone II does not indicate that there are any additions other than siloxanes, of which there are literally hundreds, (polymers) common to all silicones, without getting to complicated about it, The MSDS also does not indicate any proprietary additives either. Where such is present, the law requires that they be included in the MSDS. This raises serious questions as to the validity of the advertising.

What differentiates Silicone II from Silicone I is the latter is an acetoxy cure silicone, and the former is a neutral cure silicone.

Silicone II does not take longer to cure; published cure times are about the same. However the cure times pertain to a specific amount of silicone, usually given in a bead size, generally 1/8" or 1/4". Hardly have I ever seen an aquarium application use that little. As the amount increases the cure time increases, a week, two weeks...RTV100 series' 7 day full cure time is for a 1/4" bead!

 

I would say that neutral cure silicone is a bit more toxic in its "uncured" state than acetoxy cure silicone, but that is as far as it goes. It is better to malign a product for what it does not do well, rather than internet rumor.

 

if you can confirm that you used GE silicone II, that would be helpful and we can work from there. sounds like one week likely wasn't long enough cure time given how much we use on baffles typically and it is leaching things adversely affecting your tank. if you feel strongly that it was fully cured in that one week time then perhaps none of this matters but it is worth serious consideration for action.

Edited December 18, 2013 by monkiboy

[.OptimusPrime.]

Which GE silicone? A quick search on the HD website shows GE silicone II or GE Supreme being in a gold/white tube.

[Bmax]

 

It was the GE II waterproof (clear)

[Origami]

Silicone II has been known to cause problems with many tanks in the past. Silicone II takes longer to cure than Silicone I and, therefore, can release curing byproducts into your tank for a longer period until it's fully cured. Silicone I is an acetoxy silicone which will have a vinegar smell during curing. It's byproducts are less harmful to tanks. It's best with either, though, to wait until it's fully cured. How long did you wait between installing baffles in your sump and integrating it with your tank? There's a chance that you may have to pull the sump offline and dry it out for a week or two, while performing large water changes in the display to remove any byproducts that may be polluting the water.

[Origami]

Here's a similar story from a while back.

[wade]

I think a critical issue here is that he could still smell the VOC's from the solvents used in the pvc cement.  Perhaps the issues are overlapping, but in the end, the solution is the same.

 

Continuous activated carbon and water changes, unless you want to isolate the sump for a while just in case (for both to cure fully).  I'm guessing that if the PVC cement is the primary issue, it won't last long. And it'll evaporate readily from the water/skimmer.  The slow cure from the silicon I can't hazard a guess as to how long, but again your nose is one of the best indicators.

 

BTW - there are studies showing that our noses are more sensitive to some VOCs and hormones/pheremones than mass spec methods. Pretty amazing! Although it is a limited list.

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

mason, i don't know if i understand you correctly. how is adhering a joint together and the amount of solvent required for same sized pipe for a proper seal any different given the tank size? i dont want some plumbing or reefing noob having leaks or plumbing woes after reading and taking your advice as it seems to be written.

Simply Meaning,,, Don't Pour the Whole Bottle over the pipe. Lol. If its just a 115gph pump I'd use it sparingly when applying. But Just enough to get a Good Seal...

       For higher PSI, and when talking about putting one in the basement, to another level, etc.  I'd put a, "Decent" amount of Glue on, and Make sure its on Nice and Good. and Tight... and give it Ample time to dry... This is when Leaks and " Things ", that go wrong, typically occur. When dealing with Larger Diameters, and Higher PSI, there is a Larger Surface Area and More Room, for error to occur, and sometimes Actually making them more difficult/longer for them to bond. ...

 

      With a Small Nano, you can almost get away with Just pressing the Pipes together, I have in the past, Ran a 5g - 10g, for 2 months, using No Glue. Nonetheless, This was a random Tank, a few friends and I,  just Threw together for fun.

                          Given' if it was a "Tank" of mine, I'd deff' of applied the glue.lol

    So to summarize, I'd recommend, not going overboard on Glueing pipes for something such-as, a Nano. Just get enough on there, to thoroughly, Coat all Contact Points, and to be sure it adherer's to each other. Less chance of Fouling the water and other factors...  

  

 Sorry to Confuse anyone, Take what I say In Stride.lol

 

 

I understand, What I may call " a Lil ", may Greatly Differ from what you call a lil'.   But Just My, " 2 Cents ".lol

[TheyCallMeMr.703]

I think a critical issue here is that he could still smell the VOC's from the solvents used in the pvc cement.  Perhaps the issues are overlapping, but in the end, the solution is the same.

 

Continuous activated carbon and water changes, unless you want to isolate the sump for a while just in case (for both to cure fully).  I'm guessing that if the PVC cement is the primary issue, it won't last long. And it'll evaporate readily from the water/skimmer.  The slow cure from the silicon I can't hazard a guess as to how long, but again your nose is one of the best indicators.

 

BTW - there are studies showing that our noses are more sensitive to some VOCs and hormones/pheremones than mass spec methods. Pretty amazing! Although it is a limited list.

Yes, do you have somewhere/something You can keep everything I, in the meantime??? May be easier, Depending on the size...

[sen5241b]

I've done a gazillion 50% water changes and my tank was never the worse for it BUT make sure you match salnity and temp very close. And my corals always looked better afterwards!

Edited December 18, 2013 by sen5241b

[Bmax]

The 50% water change has been completed. Unfortunately, the Bristlestar didn't make it. By the time and I got home all of his legs and disintegrated and that was it. I feel terrible. I never knew that I could get attached to a Bristlestar of all things. So, I guess now I'll wait and see how things look in the morning. I have another batch of water going that will be ready for tomorrow if need be. Thanks for all of the advice I'll keep you posted.

[Bmax]

On a side note, the silicone that I used was GE premium waterproof silicone II, three hour rain ready. It's actually in a blue, white and gold bottle. l

[monkiboy]

so are you going to separate the sump and allow it to dry as to allow proper curing time to eliminate that as a very possible variable of trouble?

Edited December 19, 2013 by monkiboy

[Geoffwehler]

Silicone II = bad. PVC primer and glue dry very quickly and is able to be used with in minutes under normal conditions. Unless you put them together outside standing in a snow pile. It shouldn't have caused any problem. The way I understand. The big deal with silicone II or any version other than 100% silicone (silicone I) is the anti mildew agents that are used in it. Great for showers but not so much for fish.

 

 

 

[Bmax]

If things don't look any better today then I'll take the sump off-line and empty it out to let it dry out. Does anyone know how long I should let it dry out or is it impossible to use this sump because of the silicone? Will this continue to be a problem in the future even after it's dry?

[AlanM]

Silicone with acetoxy cure supposedly cures faster in warm humid conditions, not sure about submerged. I dont get how it is toxic, but various people have claimed that it is.

[Origami]

Thoughts from this old Reef Central thread on the subject that are very useful:

 

Ok, this conversation or debate, has been rehashed it seems, almost, since the beginning of time. It is never resolved, and the sound sensible advice, that has been given, is generally ignored, or even further debated.

Is Silicone II toxic? Largely it is an unknown. Most likely, once cured, it is not anymore toxic than any other silicone.

It is however, a neutral cure or solvent based product. It releases an ammonia odor. It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Silicone I, on the other hand, is an acetoxy cure product. It releases an acetic acid odor (vinegar.) It is very easy to spot this, with similar products, using a simple sniff test.

Since the beginning of time, the recommendation (regardless of the debates, and the "oh it will be fines",) for silicone in an aquarium application has been:

100% Silicone (most are)
Acetoxy Cure (some are some aren't)
FDA Approved for food contact

Why the FDA approval? Because it eliminates the possibility, (either real or imagined, depending on the particular product,) that the silicone will cause a problem in the tank. It is not that there are no products out there, that are NOT FDA approved, that are safe. It simply takes the guess work out of it. In this manner, the "mass kill-off" will not be related to the silicone, in any way other than insufficient cure time. Because any way you slice it, if it is not FULLY cured, it will kill your tank FDA approved or not. Allowing a week or more cure time eliminates even this variable.

Did the silicone kill off this particular tank? It is an unknown, could it have? Yes, considering the application, it is quite possible that it did not cure--especially in the center of the background. Or it could have been, since the tank should have been taken down, that the shock, when restarted, took out the tank. Or maybe, Silicone II is just toxic from the word go cured or not. But anecdotal information exists supporting BOTH sides of the question, so again it is an unknown.

Also,the labels on both GE I AND II, say not for use in aquariums, however, IIRC, the GE I label (or product information) now shows FDA approval. Be that as it may, the recommendation remains unchanged.

100% Silicone
Acetoxy Cure
FDA Approved ......

This eliminates the questions, and then there is only the question of using the right product for the application. No longer is it needed to ask "is this silicone safe in my tank" and variations thereof. Read the LABEL. Read the product information, you have to look for it sometimes. The MSDS does not tell you what you need to know. The tank builders will not tell you, the tank manufacturers will not tell you. Though, I do have inside information on that, and have posted it many many times. Sometimes the silicone manufacturer will tell you, sometimes they will not. However, if you take the basic advice, there is not going to be any questions, other than is Product A strong enough for the application, or would Product B, considering the application, be a better choice.

[AlanM]

There ya go. 

 

So is the "ammonia odor" from GE II actually ammonia or something else that just smells like it.  Maybe you got a huge ammonia spike that's converting to nitrite and wiping out your inverts. 

 

How about an NH3/NO2/NO3 test to see what's going on with those?

[Origami]

There ya go. 

 

So is the "ammonia odor" from GE II actually ammonia or something else that just smells like it.  Maybe you got a huge ammonia spike that's converting to nitrite and wiping out your inverts. 

 

How about an NH3/NO2/NO3 test to see what's going on with those?

Not sure. I've always assumed that it's actually ammonia or a close analog.

[Bmax]

Thanks for the info. I'll be taking the sump off line today and dry it out for maybe 3 weeks or so just to be sure. If that doesn't work I'll have to dip into the fund that I have for my 300 gallon tank build to get another small tank first (or maybe a 90 gallon) to replace this one.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Bmax

[Bmax]

Because, I built this sump into the new stand that I modified for this upgrade for this bio cube. So, it may just be easier and cheaper(if I get something off of craigslist) to start over.