return coming out under the coast to coast internal overflow?

[AlanM]

I'm installing a 3 foot wide internal overflow box in my 4 foot tank and am going to have three bulkheads in it with elbows downwards and upwards for a BeanAnimal 3-drain setup.

 

I'm considering putting a fourth bulkhead and connecting the elbow to the bottom of the overflow box through a hole in the bottom and putting a really wide flare or a loc-line Y with two flares on it facing straight down in the center of the back and attempting to blow out towards the walls.

 

The idea would be to make sure that the area behind the rocks along the back of the tank gets good water movement and maybe the food and stuff that fell in this shadowed area under the internal overflow box wouldn't accumulate, instead it would blow out toward the sides where I'll have some Tunze internal powerheads to move it out to the front and keep it in the water column. Another benefit would be that I could hide the return flare behind the rockscape.

 

I'd drill an anti-siphon hole on the side of the elbow and put some RO/DI tubing in it coming out the side of the box so that it won't drain 8 inches of water out of my tank when the pump shuts off.

 

Is this a dumb idea? I know I would likely blow a hole in the sand back there.

[steveoutlaw]

It's a good idea. I have an external overflow with a Bean Animal. I have two 3/4" return bulkheads at each end of the tank. I put the return through those and have them each pointed down at an angle to ensure that I get adequate flow on the back wall of the tank. What you are talking about will accomplish the same thing, only yours will be pointed toward the side walls from the middle, rather than pointed at the middle from the side walls.

[zygote2k]

you'll only need a check valve instead of an anti-siphon hole.

I gotta ask- why go athrough all the hassle of a CTC overflow and bean animal design/herbie thing when a simple internal overflow box will work just fine?

[AlanM]

you'll only need a check valve instead of an anti-siphon hole.

I thought I remembered folks even on this forum with no end of trouble with check valves. Like ones that start slamming shut if the flow isn't enough to hold them all the way open and make lots of vibratory noise and fail to seal allowing the tank to slowly leak out to the return level anyway.

 

Was it Mbvette on his new tank that had check valve problems?

 

I gotta ask- why go athrough all the hassle of a CTC overflow and bean animal design/herbie thing when a simple internal overflow box will work just fine?

 

Because I buy the arguments about why CTC (lots of surface exchange and most of the water removed coming from the top) and BeanAnimal (dead silent siphon-based flow in a totally flooded pipe, wide range of return flow without adjustment, and redundant emergency protection) are better than a glass-holes box, even though they're cool. It's not experience on my part, for sure, it's just a year or so of reading.

[zygote2k]

On all commercial pumps and on all of our maintenance tanks, we use true union flapper type clear check valves. Prevents any water from coming back into sump. Especially useful if you have a deep nozzle. In all the years of doing this, I've only ever seen 2 failed check valves and that was simply due to old age. The reason why people have issues with them is because they have used them in addition to the anti-siphon holes or they installed them wrong. They are virtually maintenance free and are designed to last for many years- the hinge and seal is made of some sort of rubber. When you use check valves under water, they tend to 'hammer' for a few seconds before sealing shut. If you use it in a horizontal application, it has to be turned a certain way.

 

As far as overflow box configurations go, did you actually calculate the the size of the box based upon the plumbing aspects of your tank? For instance, a 25 linear inch box is large enough to accomodate 1200-1500gph using 2) 1.5" drains and will be silent as long as the sump is designed to handle the flow and resulting noise.

The big custom tank that I just ordered for nearly $20k doesn't have a bean or herbie box because it's unneccessary complication. Simple overflow box with big drains and bubble killer in the sump.

Any internal overflow will provide surface skimming- even those with mid and bottom level openings in addition to the weir at the top.

You've convinced yourself that you need this kinda crazy setup based upon the forum posts. What do all of the sumps look like on these bean type applications? Are they noise and saltcreep free?

Have you ever seen a truly large 1000+ gallon tank? I've never seen a professionally done commercial sized tank with a Herbie overflow. Must be that it's more hype than its worth.

I can prove all of this to you- come look and listen to my tank. Simple standpipe, bubble killer= no noise and no saltcreep.

[hypertech]

My herbie is noise and salt creep free.

 

I will admit I haven't setup many 1000g tanks, but a fail to see the relevance.

[steveoutlaw]

My Bean Animal is the quietest that I've ever heard, and I get very little salt creep.

 

As for the coast to coast, it may not be a necessity, but it certainly does better surface skimming than the other overflows out there.

[Steve175]

The Bean Animal approach is too new to use the fact that many existing tanks don't have them as a sign that it does not represent an optimal design. I too believe that the efficiency of surface skimming is directly proportional to the linear length of the weir. I think that your plans are sound. I would really avoid relying upon either a long siphon tube (very likely to get clogged over time) or check valves (I had a Sch 80 2" Hayward check valve [installed vertically and in proper direction] stick closed and rain upon 2 EB4s ~ 3 months ago [after running only 9 months] and now feel that I have to soak them in vinegar/acid every 6 months which is a PIA). Not totally I understand where you plan to place the 4th BH for the return: I would place it high in the back into the coast-to-coast and then use a 90 to have the loc-line run out of the bottom of the coast-to-coast. That 90 would be pretty close to the surface and you could drill the siphon breaks directly into it. The amount of water shunting directly into the coast to coast when the pump is operating would be minimal and during power loss your return line would siphon break quickly (after the coast to coast drained). This would work well from a plumbing perspective, would not rely on a siphon tube nor a check valve, and cosmetically would be invisible.

[zygote2k]

How would a stuck check valve result in "rain upon 2 EB4's"? If you had the plumbing connections tight, there shouldn't be any leaks or possibilites of leaks. Sounds like another improper placement of electrical components near saltwater.

[AlanM]

Not totally I understand where you plan to place the 4th BH for the return: I would place it high in the back into the coast-to-coast and then use a 90 to have the loc-line run out of the bottom of the coast-to-coast. That 90 would be pretty close to the surface and you could drill the siphon breaks directly into it. The amount of water shunting directly into the coast to coast when the pump is operating would be minimal and during power loss your return line would siphon break quickly (after the coast to coast drained). This would work well from a plumbing perspective, would not rely on a siphon tube nor a check valve, and cosmetically would be invisible.

 

Yep, that's what I was picture doing with the 90 in the back of the coast to coast and out the bottom of it. I was going to put some tube to avoid water going right back into the coast to coast, but you're right that there wouldn't be much of it.

 

I'm not wedded to the BeanAnimal or anything. And if it's really possible to get a dead silent overflow with 750 gph or so out of something much simpler with less footprint in the tank and include some backup plan for snail clogs and safety, I'd be fine doing that too.

[AlanM]

As far as overflow box configurations go, did you actually calculate the the size of the box based upon the plumbing aspects of your tank? For instance, a 25 linear inch box is large enough to accomodate 1200-1500gph using 2) 1.5" drains and will be silent as long as the sump is designed to handle the flow and resulting noise.

 

I want to put 750 gph through the sump. At 36 inches of toothless weir and at that flow rate I should have .25 inches of water above the edge. I used the equations on http://www.aquatext.com/calcs/weir%20flow.htm to come up with that number.

[Steve175]

How would a stuck check valve result in "rain upon 2 EB4's"? If you had the plumbing connections tight, there shouldn't be any leaks or possibilites of leaks. Sounds like another improper placement of electrical components near saltwater.

 

Sounds like another flash to a judgement when you know nothing of the system nor the specifics involved . . .

Back to helping the OP.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Steve175

[zygote2k]

Sounds like another flash to a judgement when you know nothing of the system nor the specifics involved . . .

Back to helping the OP.

That's why I was asking. I'd like to know how the situation you described happened?

[treesprite]

The 1st C2C I did, I drilled holes in the front glass of the overflow for my return pipes to go through.

[BowieReefer84]

If you plan to have sand I would not aim a powerhead straight down.

 

Also, beananimal is dead silent with zero salt creep, and when used with an internal overflow box is very easy to design.

 

In overflow box I have three straight pipes of different heights (lowest is full siphon). Also, notched a 'V' to stop vortex.

20120904_210826 by mteske1, on Flickr

 

In sump it goes straight down

20120904_210221 by mteske1, on Flickr

 

You want to make sure you have siphon holes drilled as well on the returns.

 

Goodluck on what YOU decide to do.

Edited March 4, 2013 by BowieReefer84

[AlanM]

Mike, I wasn't going to do an internal box from top to bottom, was going to go out the back. Planning to go straight down and into the sump, though.

 

I've never seen that picture of yours looking down into the box, just the ones you posted before of it already going with water in it. Why are there 4 pipes in there with one of them being gray?

 

I'm not discounting Rob's experience, even if what he says disagrees with other's. It's clear that he knows how to run big and small tanks effectively or he would have lost that job doing it long ago. I'm planning to go over to his place this weekend to get some learning and listen to his tank and see the overflows and lights and see the mods he makes to the CS1 to get them to work a bit better before mine gets all glued up in the stock config. Then I'll decide if I want to do the BeanAnimal or a glass-holes box or two. It's likely nothing he says will convince me now that I have my mind set on a BeanAnimal, but it's possible. At this point with my undrilled tank sitting on the floor where it's going to go for a month or so my wife would vote for the simplest solution. 8)

[BowieReefer84]

I've never seen that picture of yours looking down into the box, just the ones you posted before of it already going with water in it. Why are there 4 pipes in there with one of them being gray?

 

It's the reflection... Only 3 pipes.

 

Checking out multiple setups is the best way to decide.

[zygote2k]

Checking out multiple setups is the best way to decide.

 

I agree with this statement 100%. I just don't think many people actually take the time to visit other tanks and see what works.

They just read something on a forum and go with it.

[AlanM]

I also want to check out what Ross has going on over at Roscoe's Reefs since he's local to me. I have an Apex in the box downstairs ready to be used, but I'm interested in at least seeing what the Arduino-based Reef Angel does.