newbie question about sump/skimmer/overflow sizing

[AlanM]

I'm planning out a system right now. Looks like it will be a 90g 36x24x24. I'll likely get the full blown CS1 skimmer kit with pump, locker, swabbie, and an MR5 reactor/nozzle kit to run biopellets right before the skimmer as you mention in the suggestions for the CS1. I see the liters per hour for the Sicce pump on the CS1, but I had a question about rates and running it with the biopellets etc.

 

Should I just try to design the overflow system to match the 1100 lph of the skimmer and then put the Sicce pump feeding the biopellet reactor with water going from that and into the skimmer instead of the Sicce pump feeding the skimmer directly? If that's the case, it's a little low for the movement through the sump at only about 3x turnover per hour, so that must not be right. Would I keep the CS1 outside the sump or put it inside since it comes with the recirc base standard now or does the base not determine if it's internal or external? Would I somehow run the drain from the overflow directly into the skimmer and put the extra drain pipe (if it's a Herbie or Bean system) into the refugium or return section of the sump?

 

I guess I'm not sure how the water travels through the system, into the sump, and to a return section with a return pump in the sump before being sent back to the display. I know it can be done in different ways, but I would like to know what the recommended way of running the CS1 is.

 

Also, if I was going to divert some water at some point into a refugium in the sump at what point should I tee off? On the return output or on the skimmer output or input?

[PotomacBoater]

Assuming an insump skimmer ...

 

The skimmer rate and overflow rate do not need to match.

 

Set your overflow at between 6 and 10x turnover per hour by buying the appropriate return pump (accounting for head loss) and with the appropriate overflow box/piping.

 

My sump has overflow water entring the center area for the skimmer, then overflows thru the bubble trap to the return, and then on the way up to the display it hits a "T" to the left comparment with the refugium, that trickes back into the skimmer section. this means cleaner water into the fuge, but it also means that pods coming out of the fuge might go thru the skimmer before getting to the return.

 

The second common configuration is overflow to first partition with the skimmer, then fuge, then return.

but the rate thru the fuge in this case has to equal the rate of the return pump, where the above method can be throttled down.

 

Other people will tell you that the fuge should be before the skimmer, because overflow water contains all the stuff that the critters in the fuge need to eat. Its all a matter of opinion.

 

Water going past the skimmer that isn't skimmed is not bad.

it will come back and get skimmed later

Edited November 14, 2012 by PotomacBoater

[dandy7200]

SEE COMMENTS IN BOLD

I'm planning out a system right now. Looks like it will be a 90g 36x24x24. I'll likely get the full blown CS1 skimmer kit with pump, locker, swabbie, and an MR5 reactor/nozzle kit to run biopellets right before the skimmer as you mention in the suggestions for the CS1. I see the liters per hour for the Sicce pump on the CS1, but I had a question about rates and running it with the biopellets etc.

 

Should I just try to design the overflow system to match the 1100 lph (1100lph is the AIR draw of the skimmer) of the skimmer and then put the Sicce pump feeding the biopellet reactor with water going from that and into the skimmer instead of the Sicce pump feeding the skimmer directly? (YES, but you still need a separate pump to pump water through the reactor and into the skimmer) If that's the case, it's a little low for the movement through the sump at only about 3x turnover per hour, so that must not be right (you want to aim for 350-400gph to feed through the skimmer, a maxijet or Sicce Syncra work well for this). Would I keep the CS1 outside the sump or put it inside since it comes with the recirc base standard now or does the base not determine if it's internal or external? (CS1 is an internal recirculating skimmer so it goes in your sump, CS2 is an external skimmer) Would I somehow run the drain from the overflow directly into the skimmer and put the extra drain pipe (if it's a Herbie or Bean system) into the refugium or return section of the sump? (this works too, aim for 350gph if feeding directly from the overflow by using a gate valve to tune, you will more than likely not hit exactly 350-400gph with just one overflow pipe so yes, you need a tee to divert some water or a second overflow pipe that can handle the rest of the overflow)

 

I guess I'm not sure how the water travels through the system, into the sump, and to a return section with a return pump in the sump before being sent back to the display. I know it can be done in different ways, but I would like to know what the recommended way of running the CS1 is.

 

Also, if I was going to divert some water at some point into a refugium in the sump at what point should I tee off? On the return output or on the skimmer output or input? (potomacboater's descriptions of the options are good. There is really no "best" way, there are however many opinions. Really it is just splitting hair IMHO. Turning the water through the sump 5x/hour is plenty, I prefer skimmer before refugium, others prefer the opposite ;-)

[AlanM]

Thanks for the answers! So if I'm understanding how the CS1 works correctly I'd have a section of the sump for skimmer and MR5 fed from the overflow or however I chose to get tank water into that section. I'd put a 350gph pump in there to send water from that section into the reactor, then straight from there into the skimmer, and the CS1 has an output that goes right back into the water that it sits in and overflows through a bubble trap or something into the return section of the sump?

 

So the Sicce is pumping air, not water? Or is it pumping water, but using venturi to pull in air from the tube going up next to the collection cup?

 

Maybe I'll figure it out better once I get it and see the parts. I'm getting in by switching hobbies. Sold my home brewery today and putting the money towards saltwater. Can't get approval to spend too much extra money on fishes, so I'll likely be doing the DIY stuff and the Avast stuff seems like the perfect option for me.

[dandy7200]

Your description of flow is exactly correct.

 

The skimmer pumps air and water, it uses a venturi to get the air and the water is constantly recirculating inside the skimmer in a closed loop arrangement.

 

I sold my brewing stuff long ago, I sure had some fun times with it though

[ctenophore]

I will try to post a picture of a setup I have that shows a herbie overflow system that feeds a manifold that runs both a carbon filter as well as an experimental biofilter that in turn connects to the skimmer. All gravity fed, and it is silent. It is out in my greenhouse so can't get pics now. But I think it will be helpful to you if you want to gravity feed a biopellet reactor which feeds the skimmer. The trick is to use tees with bypass valves so you can allow the right amount of flow through the biopellets and then the skimmer. IME, the pellets need a bit more flow than the skimmer can handle, so I typically put a tee with bypass valve between the pellets and skimmer.

 

Here is a photo of how I have my quarantine system set up, although this is fed with a pump rather than herbie overflow.

[AlanM]

Where does the output of the bypass tee go in this picture? back in to the water that the pump is sitting in? Also, where is the output of the skimmer going?

[ctenophore]

Yes, they both just empty straight down into the sump. Something clever could probably be done with this, but it's just a QT and it works well enough. I just wanted to show the pellet reactor, connection to skimmer input, and the bypass tee as an example.

[AlanM]

So I have an mr5 that I'm building now for a biopellets reactor. I'll send the output directly in to the cs1 that I'm also building (or trading for an already built one).

 

I have questions about the mr5 build with the nozzle. Should the nozzle end 2.5 inches from the bottom of the reactor, or should the pipe be cut to that length and then the nozzle installed which would make it end around an inch from the bottom of the reactor?

 

Also, what I got a half liter of pellets. How much should I put in and what flow should I aim for to both keep these things moving and also feed the cs1 at a good rate. Would the 350 GPH be good for both of those things? I was planning to put the pump before the mr5 to push water through it and then into the skimmer.

 

Or should I put one pump on the mr5 and dump it in the vicinity of another pump that would feed the skimmer so I can have independent flows through each and the skimmer would get some non pellet water and some from pellets?

 

[ctenophore]

Put the nozzle about 3/4" to 1" from the bottom of the reactor.

 

Start with half of the pellets in the reactor, and soak the other half in tank water for a few days before adding them, maybe 2 weeks to a month after the first half go in.

 

You'll need about 200gph to move the pellets effectively, but only about half of this is needed for the skimmer, hence the bypass tee as in the photo above. No need for two feed pumps.

[AlanM]

I'm back with more questions.  That took a lot of time to set up. 8)

 

I'm running the skimmer at the moment and just letting it drain into the sump because it's overflowing.  I have been running it for about a week with an MJ600 attached to the input with about a 1" piece of tubing, so it sits under the skimmer.  The MJ600 should be around 160GPH.  I have the exit ball valve wide open as far as I can tell, but it's doing this:

 

 

What should I do to try to get it to calm down or should I just let it run for a while to keep breaking in?  I can reduce the flow further with a valve and tee if you think 160 is too much?  You say about 100 was needed for the skimmer above.  Is that the issue?

[rtsusc83]

Did u get a response from avast?

[AlanM]

No. I didn't hear from them on the forums and never emailed them about it. I got some advice from YHSublime and zygote2k and BowieReefer.  I ended up with the feed pump going to a Tee with a piece of tube facing down and then to a small ball valve supplied by Avast with the skimmer and then to the input barb on the bottom.  I valved it way way down with the output effluent valve wide open so that the foam only came up to the top of the sticker in the picture, then I closed the valve for water coming out until the foam raised up to just where it would start to overflow with the collection cup off.  Then I put the cup back on.  

 

A surprisingly small amount of water is going through the skimmer, but I don't have a good point of reference for how much is a lot or a little for a recirc venturi skimmer.  I haven't measured how much goes through, but it's just a trickle.  It's collecting some crud now.  I think I just don't have that much crud to collect because I'm feeding very little at the moment.  Just enough to keep the bacteria happy, basically.  And now enough to keep a cute pink predatory crab who now lives in my sump and is named "crabby" by my two year old.

[rtsusc83]

No. I didn't hear from them on the forums and never emailed them about it. I got some advice from YHSublime and zygote2k and BowieReefer.  I ended up with the feed pump going to a Tee with a piece of tube facing down and then to a small ball valve supplied by Avast with the skimmer and then to the input barb on the bottom.  I valved it way way down with the output effluent valve wide open so that the foam only came up to the top of the sticker in the picture, then I closed the valve for water coming out until the foam raised up to just where it would start to overflow with the collection cup off.  Then I put the cup back on.  

 

A surprisingly small amount of water is going through the skimmer, but I don't have a good point of reference for how much is a lot or a little for a recirc venturi skimmer.  I haven't measured how much goes through, but it's just a trickle.  It's collecting some crud now.  I think I just don't have that much crud to collect because I'm feeding very little at the moment.  Just enough to keep the bacteria happy, basically.  And now enough to keep a cute pink predatory crab who now lives in my sump and is named "crabby" by my two year old.

Thanks.  I am experiencing the same problem with the effluent valve all the way open but I am not controlling the recirculating pump like you described above.  The skimmer performance is not consistent but I have had two episodes of overfilling the cup. Somewhat disappointed.  I essentially have no bioload except for two tiger conch snails that keep my sand clean.  I am going to try what you describe above.  Know of any other place to get the ball valve supplied by Avast?

[AlanM]

Dunno.  It was just a little one with barbs about the same size as the interior dimension of the tubing and of the feed fitting. 

 

I'm not controlling the recirc pump, by the way.  I'm controlling the feed pump.  You need a little powerhead like an MJ400 or MJ600 pushing water into it.  In my case the MJ600 by itself was too much so the Tee and valve help divert some of the flow.

 

It could just be that both of us have very little organics.  I have basically the same bioload as you with two conchs and three turbo snails.  Not a ton.

[ctenophore]

 

It could just be that both of us have very little organics.  I have basically the same bioload as you with two conchs and three turbo snails.  Not a ton.

This is very likely what's going on in both cases.  Sometimes, skimmers generate foam because of other things in the water, especially on a new tank (e.g., new filter socks).  As the tank matures and bioload/organics increases, the skimmate output will be more consistent.  The flow rate is fine.  I tested a CS1 with a Sicce 1.0 stuck right in the bottom for the better part of a year on my system and it never overflowed.  Give it some time to settle down- let the skimmer empty into a 5 gal bucket a few times to help pull out whatever is making it go crazy.  Do this as part of a water change.

 

If you need a second valve just send me email.

[AlanM]

There ya go. 

 

With mine I'd get green goo for a while with nice looking big bubbles at the top of the cup, go away for a few hours, and come back to see piles of white foam filling the locker all of a sudden.  No idea what changed, but something did.

 

Part of my problem was in not knowing what a correctly dialed in skimmer was supposed to look like before it started pulling skimmate out.  The guys I consulted had done it before and were able to tell me.  In Rob's case he showed me the extreme amount of solid doody his CS1 had pulled out in the last month or so and how to set the foam level right after cleaning out the body of the skimmer. 

[rtsusc83]

This is very likely what's going on in both cases.  Sometimes, skimmers generate foam because of other things in the water, especially on a new tank (e.g., new filter socks).  As the tank matures and bioload/organics increases, the skimmate output will be more consistent.  The flow rate is fine.  I tested a CS1 with a Sicce 1.0 stuck right in the bottom for the better part of a year on my system and it never overflowed.  Give it some time to settle down- let the skimmer empty into a 5 gal bucket a few times to help pull out whatever is making it go crazy.  Do this as part of a water change.

 

If you need a second valve just send me email.

Thanks for the advice.  

[YHSublime]

 

1 week dry skimming with my recirc avast cs1, on my 57 deep blue.

[AlanM]

yummy.

[YHSublime]

yummy.

I don't know how to replace that picture from my phone, meant this one... And that's just a small finger swab, the neck is filled with poo, and I've already dumped the coffee looking water. This skimmer performs, no doubt about it. My cs1 on the 150 is only pulling slightly dirty goo, there isn't a huge bio load yet.

[wildcrazyjoker81]

Dude wear some gloves lol. You don't wipe your own tush with your hand do ya?

[YHSublime]

Dude wear some gloves lol. You don't wipe your own tush with your hand do ya?

 

Right by the sink, nothing a hand wash wont fix.

 

I bought a pack of gloves when I started, and maybe used two pairs. And to settle your curiosity, the answer is no, I prefer charmin extra soft vs. hands.

[wildcrazyjoker81]

Right by the sink, nothing a hand wash wont fix.

 

I bought a pack of gloves when I started, and maybe used two pairs. And to settle your curiosity, the answer is no, I prefer charmin extra soft vs. hands.

 

Laugh my butt off!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[rtsusc83]

I don't know how to replace that picture from my phone, meant this one... And that's just a small finger swab, the neck is filled with poo, and I've already dumped the coffee looking water. This skimmer performs, no doubt about it. My cs1 on the 150 is only pulling slightly dirty goo, there isn't a huge bio load yet.

Awesome performance.  Cant wait to load up.  That 90 days sure is long!