Calcium

[STEVE]

Is one better than the other...dosing 2 part, say from BRS, or running thru a calc reactor with media and Co2. Forget cost for a moment, just looking at the results. Is one better than the other?

[Ryan S]

Is one better than the other...dosing 2 part, say from BRS, or running thru a calc reactor with media and Co2. Forget cost for a moment, just looking at the results. Is one better than the other?

 

It's my understanding that 2 part is the better choice for less demanding tanks, and a reactor becomes the better choice in more demanding tanks.

[Origami]

A calcium reactor will give you more than just calcium. The principle is that it dissolves coral skeleton media in water that's made acidic by injecting carbon dioxide. The media is a mix of calcium, carbonate, magnesium, and a variety of trace elements. It is probably the most "balanced" of any supplementation scheme because of this. Because of the normally acidic nature of the effluent, it can depress pH in your tank some. It's not uncommon to see tanks that solely use calcium reactors for supplementation to run in the 7.8 to 8.0 range. Some aquarists add a kalk stirrer to the configuration to raise pH, too.

 

Calcium from two-part is calcium chloride. You get the calcium boost, but also additional chloride ions. Over the long haul, you can get a chloride imbalance that shows up as salinity creep. It takes a very long time for this because chloride is the most prevalent ion in our tanks (present at about 19,000 ppm), so it's nothing to worry about. Calcium chloride is an IMBALANCED additive. Thus, you will have to supplement the additive with alkalinity and magnesium supplements in the proper ratio for your tank.

[zygote2k]

From a maintenance standpoint, 2part/ 3part dosing is by far the better method becuase of the absolute safety involved.

Calcium reactors and kalk stirrers are tank disasters waiting to happen. When you automate 2p/3p dosing, you can have disasters too, but not as severe as the other 2 methods.

[steveoutlaw]

From a maintenance standpoint, 2part/ 3part dosing is by far the better method becuase of the absolute safety involved.

Calcium reactors and kalk stirrers are tank disasters waiting to happen. When you automate 2p/3p dosing, you can have disasters too, but not as severe as the other 2 methods.

 

Disagree. I run my return pump through a Kalk stirrer and have for a long time. I only put a weeks worth of kalk in it and it has done me just fine. I think it's all in the way that you manage it. A kalk stirrer can be an inexpensive and very effective way to maintain calcium and alk in your tank.

[zygote2k]

Disagree. I run my return pump through a Kalk stirrer and have for a long time. I only put a weeks worth of kalk in it and it has done me just fine. I think it's all in the way that you manage it. A kalk stirrer can be an inexpensive and very effective way to maintain calcium and alk in your tank.

kalk is not a balanced additive- you will end up with either high calcium or alkalinity.

You might use kalk to supplement 2 part though.

Putting a couple weeks worth of kalkwasser is risky because that's more than enough to nuke your tank.

[basser9]

Alot of tanks can be run with just KALK.

I ran my first tanks just dumping it in once a day.[like calfo recommended in his first book]

A calcium reactor can lead to to high or low calcium just like anything you add to your system.

Its pretty easy to threw a little calcium into your sump if it gets out of wack if you try just kalk.

I think RANDY from reefcentral runs his mixed reef just on kalk and kalk/vinager.

If you overskim it can remove to much calcium in your skimate.

Since myself and many people have kept full blown reefs

running kalk and 2 part i think its proven that theres not a missing component that a reactor fills.

Some of the nicest tanks i have seen have been only run on 2 part.

Reactors are just better on large tanks because of the large dosing needed nothing else.

Edited September 17, 2012 by basser9

[Origami]

Kalk actually is balanced between calcium and alkalinity, Rob. It's Ca(OH)2 and, in reacting with CO2 (carbon dioxide), doses 1 calcium (Ca++) ion and 2 bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions, or 20 ppm calcium for every milliequivalent of alkalinity. What it doesn't give you is magnesium. With kalk only, you need some source of magnesium replenishment.

 

As for safety, many people keep a month or more of two part in their dosing reservoirs and, if you really think about it, it's the same "disaster" waiting to happen (if the dosing pump or control mechanism fails). You can't really distinguish between an alkalinity overdose with any of the methods of supplementation.

[Origami]

There are several reasons why you can, over the long haul, see imbalances between calcium and alkalinity when using balanced additives. One reason is imbalanced consumption which occurs when a magnesium ion is substituted for a calcium ion in the calcium carbonate skeleton of a coral. Another is a failure to complete the nitrogen cycle. You see, in the last part of the nitrogen cycle, where nitrate is converted back to nitrogen gas, there's a return of one bicarbonate ion to the water. The end result is balanced consumption (or close to it). If an aquarist with a nitrate problem is managing nitrates through water changes, this return does not occur, consumption will be imbalanced and the aquarist will find themselves having to supplement alkalinity to compensate for the loss from export.

[flowerseller]

Calcium reactors are best described as alkalinity reactors and many who use them dose a calcium additive to maintain 400ppm.

[Origami]

Chip, it sounds like you're talking about a kalk reactor, not a Calcium reactor. A calcium reactor delivers both calcium and alkalinity in balanced proportions through dissolution of calcium carbonate media.

 

Even then, a kalk reactor is a balanced supplementation scheme.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/chemistry

[flowerseller]

Chip, it sounds like you're talking about a kalk reactor, not a Calcium reactor. A calcium reactor delivers both calcium and alkalinity in balanced proportions through dissolution of calcium carbonate media.

 

Even then, a kalk reactor is a balanced supplementation scheme.

 

http://www.advanceda...003/2/chemistry

 

Nope,

Calcium reactor is what I liken to an alkalinity reactor.

You can run your alkalinity up much faster and much higher with a calcium reactor than you could ever hope to achieve with a kalk reactor.

Any pH swings from a kalk reactor will generally settle down with little attention and using muriatic acid should be left as the absolute last resort since few of us are able to stop the slide once it starts. Biggest problem I found was once it started to lower pH, it caused so much fall out it was nearly unstoppable. Not questioning your suggestion, just adding a bit of alarm so other understand the potential consequences of this approach.

 

BTW, I'm sure Steve meant to say he runs his top off through his kalk reactor and not his return through his kalk reactor.

 

[Der ABT]

personally i use a CARX....love it, when it runs right things are DEAD ON...recently had issues with mine, basically was racing alot and not paying attention.

 

finally cleaned up everything (hadnt cleaned it in over a year), new media etc....finally have it dialed in...alk has been dead finally.

 

before this i had almost no issues besides a valve getting clogged....

 

while there is the potential for disaster in both dosing and CaRX...i kinda agree with rob where more often you see a CARx have a catostrophic issue on its own...where most dosing pumps have issues with user error...when they fail its easy to notice taht you dont have to fill this or that but it can fail the other way and over dose, you just dont see that often....

 

i still prefer the CARx and Kalk reactor combo (i put in enough kalk for 4-5 days)...just has worked for me very well.....if i had to do it all over again i probably still would go CARX but 2 part is tempting with all the new controllers etc making life much easier.

 

is there one better than the other....MH vs T5 (sorry wont add LED/Radions)...both get the same basic thing done....Tom obviously knows the science better than i do and has been most objective so far...it really comes down to preference.

refill media and CO2.....just a note..running a 20lb co2 bottle for almost 3 years and just had to refill it.

or refill 2 part depending on size of containers...oh yeh and mixing 2 part..

 

safest thing would be to dose and have to refill daily i would think...or make the refills enough where if yuo added all of it, the tank would be ok...but thats basically manual dosing

[Origami]

I understand what you mean now. Yes, you can drive alkalinity up (and calcium, too) to much higher levels using a calcium reactor than a typical kalk reactor (which is limited by the volume of top-off water that is delivered and the saturation limit of kalkwasser). Of course, there are people like Anthony Calfo that dose a kalk slurry into his tank. In that case, you can drive pH and alkalinity up VERY quickly and very high if you're not careful.

 

Once you're balanced using a calcium reactor, you shouldn't have to dose calcium as the ions are replaced in balanced proportions. I've gone six months without having to tweak calcium/alkalinity balance when running a calcium reactor supplemented with kalk (to help stabilize pH at a higher level).

 

Muriatic acid was in the other thread, by the way. In extreme cases of kalk overdose, where pH is off the charts, stays there and threatens die-off, you can bring it back down in calibrated fashion by dosing an acid. The RHF article, for example, suggests using vinegar. Because of the comparatively low acidity of vinegar (5% acetic acid), it's harder to overdose. It also, as people who have used it as a carbon source know, it can add to a bacterial bloom and subsequent low oxygenation of the water (possibly exacerbating a die-off). That's where the muriatic acid (also known as a mineral acid) can be helpful. It is not a carbon source and won't contribute to a bacterial bloom. A person can also use carbonated water to add carbon dioxide to the tank to depress pH, but too much CO2 can also be toxic. The first advice, though, that was given in response to a kalk overdose was to WAIT if the pH was below 8.6, not to use an acid to depress the pH.

 

But, yes, you're absolutely correct. Muriatic acid is strong stuff that, if used, needs to be treated with respect. You need to be VERY, VERY careful with this stuff. It's something like 10 molar (31.45%) hydrochloric acid - HCl - and needs to be added slowly: Drop by drop, milliliter by milliliter. It's very strong and you need to know what you're doing and how to measure its effect if you're going to add it in an emergency situation. It'll burn your skin, burn your eyes, burn your lungs if you're not careful (and they sell it in gallon jugs at Lowe's ). It has it's place but it's not for the careless. The same goes for Crystal Drain Opener (a crystaline form of sodium hydroxide - NaOH) - on the market, but highly caustic. In this hobby, it has it's place in regeneration of GFO and DI resin. But, like muriatic acid, it can put a serious hurt on you if you're not knowledgeable in and practice good lab safety. Ozone, lasers, CO2, UV, muriatic acid, sodium hydroxide, even kalk can all be dangerous - not to mention electricity in salt water!

 

(By the way, stopping "the slide" can be accomplished using baking soda, should you ever find yourself in that place again.)

[STEVE]

Chip is correct, sorry...I meant running the top off thru the kalk reactor, not the return. I, want to try to keep as simple as possible, obtaining the best results. I have both, a reactor and 2 part dosing pumps...I am currently using 2 part thru the dosing pumps. I ran the Calcium Reactor for about 2 weeks, 4 months ago, I was not confident that I had it set correctly and took it off line. I was just throwing it out there, if one was "better" than the other and yet still achive good results. The 2 part to me is simple, I guess because I was uncomfortable with the Calcium Reactor. Looking back at it, the Calcium Reactor was really just plug and play....one you get it dialed in.

[STEVE]

And to follow up with the last comment, If someone who knows how to program the apex and help set this Calcium Reactor up, I would love to have you come by and check/dbl check my install of it.

[flowerseller]

If I remember seeing a pic of your tank somewhere in another thread, No offense, I would think you would be well fit to run JUST a kalk reactor and monitor your Mg dosing accordingly for it.

 

Once your sps, lps populations increase or grow dramatically, you can add a Ca reactor when you can not keep up.

 

While Ca reactors are very sexy, they are far more trouble than they're worth if you do not have the consumption to warrant one.

 

Nothings easy in this hobby, you want easy, get a girlfriend or wife.

[Origami]

Steve, it depends on what you're looking for in a supplementation scheme. See the link to the article that I posted above (selecting a calcium / alkalinity supplementation method). In each case, you should understand what you're adding and what you're not. Strictly speaking,

 

Two-part doses calcium and alkalinity in separate solutions. It also doses chloride and sodium in similar proportions but the amount is overwhelmed by the sodium and chloride already in the tank. If you add the magnesium supplementation, you get the big three covered (with the consequential addition of more chloride and sulfate, too). Balance is achieved by measured dosing. Trace elements are replaced through water changes.

 

Dosing kalk, calcium hydroxide, gives you calcium and alkalnity in balance. Nothing more. Magnesium will need to be supplemented by other fashion. Trace elements are replaced through water changes.

 

Calcium reactors will dose calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, and trace elements that are present in the media.

[Origami]

And to follow up with the last comment, If someone who knows how to program the apex and help set this Calcium Reactor up, I would love to have you come by and check/dbl check my install of it.

I agree with Chip, Steve. Unless you've got a lot of SPS and cannot maintain your alkalinity (and, thus, calcium) with kalk, then a calcium reactor is really not called for. If you're using a two-part regimen successfully, there's also no reason to change. In fact, dialing in a calcium reactor on a low-consumption tank can be tricky and can change somewhat quickly.

 

But, programming the Apex depends upon how the reactor is equipped and how you intend to control dosing. For example, I dose a programmed amount of effluent into my tank per day by turning on a fixed rate peristaltic pump for a measured time. The effluent has a fixed calcium and alkalinity content based on the pH inside the reactor. This is how I've done it: I installed a pH probe in my reactor some time back. The Apex measures the pH inside the reactor, opening the CO2 valve (by applying power to the CO2 solenoid) only when the reactor pH goes above 6.72 and keeping it open until it drops to about 6.65. This stabilizes the pH inside the reactor. A second outlet control goes to the peristaltic pump, which is set up to deliver 30 ml per minute. It's set up to run 20 minutes every hour. By changing the time that the pump is on (or the rate of delivery), I can change the amount of effluent and thus the calcium, alkalinity, etc.) being delivered to the tank.

[STEVE]

Chip, if a girlfriend or a wife is easy compared to this, everything is for sale !!! LOL I feel the same way about the reactor, now while the sps is not that demanding, I'm fine doing what I'm doing. I just needed to hear that from you guys! Thanks!

s

[flowerseller]

One thing that's important to remember about kalk reactors is that they are very dependent on evaporation since most are tied to a top off or dose pump configuration.

That said, and that configuration in mind, the more you evaporate, the more kalk you will add. This time of year when we are enjoying a break from our AC units and likely have our windows open, you will notice a sharp increase in evaporation, thus notice a higher pH. Don't be fooled to thinking it's just for more kalk because it's actually for two reasons. One, and the most obvious, is you will be adding more kalk which ideally has a pH of 12-12.5 if mixing properly in your reactor. The second is the simple abundance of fresh air that is not loaded with excess CO2 from our closed up rooms.

A Ca reactor is not used in a top off configuration and should not be, however, because of the newly elevated pH, may require a tweaking to maintain the same dissolvement ratio as before. The old adage of "set and forget" is one I've never agreed with.

 

Just more fun things to keep rattling around in your head while enjoying this "peacefully tranquil" hobby.

[flowerseller]

BTW,

I'm more of a fan of programming my ACIII to respond to the pH of my Ca reactor by controlling the CO2 solenoid than to limit the effluent drip pump. Just another approach, not a better or worse way to skin the proverbial cat.

[Origami]

BTW,

I'm more of a fan of programming my ACIII to respond to the pH of my Ca reactor by controlling the CO2 solenoid than to limit the effluent drip pump. Just another approach, not a better or worse way to skin the proverbial cat.

I control both the CO2 solenoid and the pump. That way I know *precisely* what I'm adding - meaning, the concentration and the volume. Do you just control one of these, Chip? I tried the "drips per minute" and "steady stream" approaches, but clogging always seemed to result in my having to go back and tweak the setting on the microvalve. That is, it was never even close to "set and forget."

[onux20]

Quick somewhat related quesiton...what is the "best" microvalve out there to the effluent control drip rate? And where did you find it?

 

Ron

[flowerseller]

I just control CO2. I place my reactor effluent line under water which for me took care of clogging. I use a JG valve. I use a DIY effluent cup which holds about 1/3 cup effluent before spilling over. It also contains a pH probe to my ACIII. My spill over is a 1/4 (?) tube so I can still count the drips, or for me a slight stream. I also run a higher pH inside my reactor going for a lower alk # at about 14. This has worked for me. My Ca reactor is an all internal DIY jobby I made about 5 or so years ago. Only external tubing is in and out and the power cord for the recirc pump, which is internal. It's a really clean look.