New Tank set-up... New to the hobby.

[Will]

Ok... Well I said Hello in another post so I'll not bore you with that. (but thanks for any answers you can give me)! and trust.... my questions may seem like I haven't been reading BUT I have read so much I am starting to confuse myself with simple things. I decided to start a separate post of questions to lessen my confusion of where to look for answers! lol

 

I received my new 125g tank/45 gal sump this past week. Proud of myself for assembling the dragon flow overflow system (yay me!- but I still don't completely understand how it works)lol... I understand the main overflow and return.

 

However, QUESTION 1-

 

At the Bulkhead, which attaches to the Bottom of the tank, there is another "secondary" drain. I don't understand why that doesn't drain my entire tank should there be a return problem?! Or drain the tank as I am filling it up. Anyway, I Filled it with tap water and ran for 24 hours. While I was filling the tank nothing drained from that "secondary" drain. The next day I did find a small leak between the bulkhead and the glass. That was my fault. I fixed that and then put some clear silicone around it for added protection.

Since this bulkhead attaches at the bottom of the tank I added a little water to check again. I also put enough water in to cover the "secondary" drain. Today I did discovered a second leak this time under the tank but still involving the bulkhead. I got this leak because Aqua Vim suggested not gluing any connections unless you needed to, incase you had a problem later. BAD SUGGESTION!

HOWEVER... that meant the "secondary" drain did drain fluid this time. I had all of the tubes off after I drained it the first time and carried it all with me to Home Depot to measure for shut-off valves to install. So I know they were empty.

 

1. Can you explain how/why this drain .. drains??

 

Question 2-

 

I plan on starting the No Fish cycling process tomorrow. I got the Bacteria (in a bottle) to seed the tank, from Congressional Aquarium today. I have Marco Rock and sand coming tomorrow. (They are not "live" but have to be shipped damp).. I don't really understand why. I am trying to keep the tank as Virgin as possible to decrease the chance of introducing contaminates. Although I know the possibility is still there as I start to add live stock to the main tank and algae to the refugium.

 

2. When do I turn the protein skimmer, Carbon Reactor, GFO Reactor, and Ozone generator on? All of theses seem counterintuitive to the cycling process....

(I know ozone is controversial. I am more interested in its role in preventing, promoting, or having no effect on cycling.)

3. I want to grow bacteria, not eliminate it, right?

 

4. Do I leave all of the lights off during the cycling process so I don't encourage algae growth?

5. Do bacteria need the light at all?

 

6. Do I add Algae to the refugium during the cycling period?

 

7. Do I add Shrimp and/or snails to the tank?

 

8. One source said add a pinch of fish food daily to the tank to build up Ammonia. Good idea or bad?

 

9. Another source said go to the grocery store and buy some raw dead shrimp and add it to the tank. Good idea or bad? ...even more important.. HOW MUCH?

A lot of people tell you what to do but they forget the details.. like How much?..1, 2, TWENTY?? daily? Weekly? What???

 

10. Should I do all of the above at the same time?

 

11. My thought is only Salinity, Ammonia, Phosphates, and Nitrites need be monitored during the cycling? anything else...pH?(is that important during cycle- I expect it to be low)

 

12. How often AND How much water changes should I do during the cycle? I plan on 20% every other week once established.- unless a problem arises.

 

Ok, Well I REALLY appreciate the help... Believe it or not... I have started to have dreams about reading all of this stuff!

 

I am sure I have forgotten several questions so I will think of more and put here.

 

Best Regards

Will

[amay121]

Welcome to WAMAS.

 

1) 2nd hole may not be a drain at all. This actually may be the return pipe.

2) Maybe they took the liberty of shaking off loose particles for you, hard to say sometimes.

3) You can turn them all on at the same time, but most of the time folks just turn on the skimmer until the tank has cycled.

4) Yes, you want to grow bacteria, but turning the equipment on, won't kill all of it.

5) You can leave the lights off, some folks start/program their normals lighting cycle, others just leave things off until they notice dinoflagelattes.

6) Not sure, but I don't think so.

7) You don't need to add algae to the tank yet, but you could.

8) When the tank hits the dino algae stage, give it some more time, but you could probably add clean up crew members (snails, hermits)

9) Pinch of food could help with the cycle (allows the bacteria to grow off the decaying food)

10) Just one shrimp will be fine.

11) Just add the shrimp, won't be as messy, but you could do both.

12) You don't have to monitor Phosphate just yet. Keep track of PH, ammonia, salinity, nitrate, nitrite. What you're striving for is the initial increase of nitrates and the overall decrease of nitrites and ammonia.

13) You don't have to do a water change until after the initial dino algae, but if you wanted to, you could.

[zygote2k]

Just pee in your tank or add a cup of household ammonia to get the cycle started.

[OldReefer]

I found that Micro Bacter 7 really accelerated my last tank cycle. As said before, go with anty and all filtration you want during the cycle. The stuff we use to extract nutrients from our tanks will never keep it too clean to grow bacteria.

 

Welcome to the board and the hobby. It sounds like you have been doing your homework.

Edited July 16, 2012 by OldReefer

[Will]

First off... Thanks so much for all the information! I greatly appreciate it.

 

Guy- Great information! I am positive that bottom part is also a drain and has nothing to do with the return. It is Aqua Vim's Dragon Flow system (4fishtanks.com). The return pipe comes up the center of the overflow pipe and returns at the very top... I also know this because I didnt initially glue the pieces and they blew off when I plugged in the return pump and shot water everywhere! LOL... Live and learn.

 

Zygote2K- LOL.... I read about the "Pee" thing... I think I will pass. and I also read that you can NOT use household ammonia because of the suds and additives. Is that wrong?

 

Bill- Thanks! I was a bit confused because it seemed like I would have been removing the very creatures I wanted to keep.

 

Thanks again guys!

 

 

[Origami]

Some/all of these may have been addressed already, but here's my take on your questions.

 

1. Can you explain how/why this drain .. drains??

If this is a stock reef-ready tank, the second drain is actually most often used as a return. However, it can be used as an emergency overflow if equipped with a stand pipe that is higher than the main overflow. This way, it would be used if the main overflow was clogged or not carrying the water load. The "Dragonflow overflow" appears to be an after-market add-on. I would not assume that this second hole (often drilled to a slightly different size than the first) is not a return line.

 

2. When do I turn the protein skimmer, Carbon Reactor, GFO Reactor, and Ozone generator on? All of theses seem counterintuitive to the cycling process....

If the tank does not have livestock in it, you can leave them off. They will only consume power. Do you have an ORP controller for the ozone? I wouldn't use ozone until you understand the risks and the benefits. If not run correctly, it can do more damage and even be a danger to yourself and inhabitants in your house.

 

3. I want to grow bacteria, not eliminate it, right?

Right. Bacteria are an important part of our biological filters.

 

4. Do I leave all of the lights off during the cycling process so I don't encourage algae growth?

That would be fine for the reason you mentioned.

 

5. Do bacteria need the light at all?

Not the kind that you're looking to propagate. You can leave the lights off.

 

6. Do I add Algae to the refugium during the cycling period?

No. Macroalgae will compete with your biological filter for nitrates and phosphates. Let your bacteria develop first.

[Origami]

7. Do I add Shrimp and/or snails to the tank?

Once your tank cycles, this would be fine. However, make sure they have something to feed on. Algae wafers, for example. Remove excess food and watch your water parameters early on.

 

8. One source said add a pinch of fish food daily to the tank to build up Ammonia. Good idea or bad?

This technique is used to build up the bacteria population. Bacteria need food, too, to multiply. In an empty tank, adding a pinch of food (or even a couple of milliliters of household, unscented ammonia every two days or so) can be used to build up the population prior to introducing livestock.

 

9. Another source said go to the grocery store and buy some raw dead shrimp and add it to the tank. Good idea or bad? ...even more important.. HOW MUCH?

Some people will tell you to leave it in until it all decays. I think that's overkill. Just leave it in and monitor for an ammonia spike. When it hits 2 ppm (no more), then pull the shrimp out. Then, once ammonia and nitrite fall to zero, if the nitrates aren't too high (<20 ppm), add your clean up crew. Add fish gradually and allow your biological filter to develop.

 

10. Should I do all of the above at the same time?

All of what? Adding fish food and shrimp? No. Just one source of ammonia is required. It really doesn't matter what the source is. You just need something that supplies the bacteria with the food they need to survive and multiply.

 

11. My thought is only Salinity, Ammonia, Phosphates, and Nitrites need be monitored during the cycling? anything else...pH?(is that important during cycle- I expect it to be low)

Temperature. You can elevate it a little (82-84 degrees) if you want to accelerate the cycle. pH is not critical to monitor now.

 

12. How often AND How much water changes should I do during the cycle? I plan on 20% every other week once established.- unless a problem arises.

No need for water changes as there's nothing in the tank to foul the water now.

[jaddc]

One tip I can offer is that if you add food and table shrimp to the tank, put it in a filter sock or netting (like old school wedding favors). That way it is easy to remove it when the ammonia gets to zero.

[Will]

Origami- I am sure these questions have been asked before but after hours and hours of reading on here, reefcentral, the web and books I figured it would help alleviate some stress to ask questions here. (ok, maybe I was wrong.. it evidently just adds stress). It is not always easy to sort through thousands of topics to find an old one that MIGHT answer your question. And like I posted... People will often tell you that something is good (say adding cocktail shrimp to start the cycle) BUT they OFTEN forget the details like... HOW MUCH?? HOW OFTEN?? Certain things may seem common sense to the seasoned hobbiest but it may not be to someone overwhelmed with the ton of new information. I also wanted to make sure I was understanding what I read. There are many 180 degree conflicting opinions out there. As soon as I feel I understand, another article/person would say something contrary to what I thought. I really wanted the response to come from here. I know there are many very knowledgable persons on this forum that would contest if someone tried to post something that was incorrect.

 

Not that I feel a true need to explain why I asked a specific question, responding to them IS optional but GREATLY appreciated. Your response was PERFECT! (outside of the comment about redundancy). I am not sure what good was accomplished with your intro statement. I can't tell you how much I appreciate yours and everyones help. Please keep in mind I posted under the Newby section... Just remember all you had to read to get to where you are. Sometimes you don't get everything the first time around and finding it again may seem impossible.

 

Jaddc- Thanks alot! One of my concerns with the fish food was the mess that it would make in my sand and stuff. One of the articles warned about this but didn't offer any solution to the problem. This is a great idea!

[Origami]

Will, to explain: I saw the response from Amay earlier in the thread but didn't try to match the answers to the questions as I was pressed for time. That's what I meant by my initial comment.... not suggesting that you go research every question that you have independently. Of course, I encourage you to read as much as you're able (you're apparently doing that anyway and, as is typical, are coming away with a plethora of opinion and even more questions).

 

Happy Reefing!

[Will]

Thanks because your information was truly helpful! and I really do appreciate it.

[Origami]

You're welcome. Enjoy the ride.

[jaddc]

I think above all the number 1 piece of advice is that the cycle will happen no matter what. One doesn't have to do anything but have patience. It can take days to months, but it will happen. Everyone does it differently -- the end result is the same.

 

I think cycling is pretty cool. It is one of the first experiences that everyone has with the hobby and you can test daily to monitor the first breaths of life in your tank.

 

The Zen of Cycling.

[MBVette]

This is a nice refresher post for me, I was reading to remind myself how to start my tank back up, lol

[Will]

Jaddc sooo true... pretty amazing.

 

MBV... lol... good luck... right now I cant get past the "Tank leak test".. UGH!

 

 

[Origami]

MBV... lol... good luck... right now I cant get past the "Tank leak test".. UGH!

Explain. What's leaking? Sorry - do you have pics?

[Origami]

Will, is the Dragonflow setup in your tank like this one? Do you have one or two bulkheads at the bottom of your tank? If two, how do you have the second bulkhead sealed? (It should probably be glued if you have a second one, since it would - as you've observed - drain your tank if it were open.)

 

http://www.aquavim.com/sump%20filters.htm#DragonFlow

[Origami]

Instructions here

http://www.aquavim.com/dragonflow.htm

 

suggest you use teflon tape or thread sealant on threaded connections. Did you use either? I've had better luck (personally) using thread sealing compound than teflon tape for troublesome connections, but have used both successfully.

 

It's not necessary to glue threaded connections, but do glue the slip connections if you want to be sure they won't leak.

[Will]

No, I don't have a picture. I'm at work and not sure I would be able to capture the "leak" since it is coming from one of two slip connections. At least I THINK the leak is coming from there. Kind of hard to tell exactly. Its a small drip but nonetheless a drip that needs to stop before I continue.

 

I glued all slip connections (obviously not very well!) LOL.. and put tape on the bulkhead threads, but I may undo that if I can and put the sealing compound like you said... i am not trying to reinvent the wheel...

 

***Is it safe to coat all the connections in silicone clear caulk and it will be ok. or should I look at replacing everything??*** Water on the second floor makes me very nervous. I dont want any problems once this is filled.

 

 

 

Yes, This is the DragonFlow System that I have. I still don't know what stops the entire (well most of) the tank from draining into my sump should the return pump fail (ie power failure). I installed two emergency shut off valves but chances are I will not be around when a problem arises. I think I should seal this up.

 

What do you think? I think it may be a bad design flaw and I just didnt know what I was looking at at the time of purchase.

 

 

 

 

This is the DragonFlow that I have...

Picture is from their website 4fishtanks.com

 

 

 

[Origami]

If the middle-sized tube in the assembly is sealed well at the base of the bulkhead, then the height of that tube will set the lowest point that the water in the tank can reach because it has to go over the "lip" that it forms at the top. Do you see how the water entering the bottom of the outer jacket has to go up the inside of that jacket in order to go over the second tube? (Follow the flow lines in the diagram in your post.) If the bottom of that second tube, though, is not sealing well, your tank could (as you observed) gradually drain. One way to check this is to turn off your pumps and, after the water level settles in a minute or so, mark the water level with a marker or a piece of tape and leave it for an hour or two (or longer). If the water level continues to drop, you have a problem. If not, that second tube is probably sealing well.

 

Personally, I don't like siliconing over leaks. I treat it as a temporary patch that may not hold. I'd much rather cut out the offending plumbing and re-doing it. That's a personal preference, though.

[Will]

Thats what I chose to do... after some playing with the glued tubes(boiling them) I was able to get them apart.

Thanks

[Origami]

Thats what I chose to do... after some playing with the glued tubes(boiling them) I was able to get them apart.

Thanks

Boiling them, eh? I've never tried that. Good for you. Good luck on closing up that leak.

[Will]

You have to be careful because all of the PVC gets soft. So I just heated it up enough to get a screwdriver easily down the side. I went on a plumbers forum and everyone said to heat it with a long lighter. I tried that but I didnt like that it was turned the plastic black and mine kept going out. So I figured heat is heat and it doesn't take much heat.

[BowieReefer84]

Don't burn pvc. Releases very toxic fumes, and if it's turning black they are being released. Boiling sounds much safer.

[davelin315]

How are you gluing them? PVC solvent should actually weld the chunks together as it essentially melts it down and then bonds them - I would think that boiling them and being able to pry them apart means that you haven't bonded them properly.