All white spots are not always ick

[Jan]

All white spots on fish are not always ick and don't always have a treatment. Consider a virus.

http://www.wetwebmed...irdislymphf.htm

 

 

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa181

 

 

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jan

[Coral Hind]

Good info Jan. Thanks for sharing!

[Jan]

I posted this information as just that, information. I had a discussion with another reefer yesterday about them possibly having ick and I suggested that they may not have ick it could be a virus. So I thouhgt I'd share this information.

 

This morning I was asked why I was getting rid of so many healthy beautiful fish. It isn't because of disease. It's because they are getting too big and they are overly aggresive with a new tank mate. I'd rather keep the new fish and get rid of the larger ones. they are getting too big for my tank. I also want to make room for more smaller unique fish.

[Ryan S]

Thanks for sharing Jan. I still don't know if my fish had ich or velvet. The photos online look very similar.

 

We have had quite a few members with ich recently. Diseases such as ich much be going around right now unfortunately.

 

I don't know much about viruses, so this is new, and good information!

[davelin315]

Ich is always "around", it just manifests itself when a fish is weakened more. This can come from stress, other illness, malnutrition, or anything else. What often complicates things is that there's nothing that says a fish can't be suffering from multiple diseases at the same time. When my fish got wiped out it was most likely velvet but since ich was already in my tank, that probably cropped up as well, complicating diagnosis and treatment.

[Jan]

Sometimes it's the wholesalers system. This is what i read somewhere especially about this virus. QT is the way to go. Even if someone says they QT you should still QT.

[Muddy357]

I guess I need to setup a QT system now.

[Jan]

+1 Once their immune system is compromised, just like us, they are susceptible to whatever other opportunistic diseases is living in our tanks. We have some pretty nasty stuff living in our systems.

 

Ich is always "around", it just manifests itself when a fish is weakened more. This can come from stress, other illness, malnutrition, or anything else. What often complicates things is that there's nothing that says a fish can't be suffering from multiple diseases at the same time. When my fish got wiped out it was most likely velvet but since ich was already in my tank, that probably cropped up as well, complicating diagnosis and treatment.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jan

[Ryan S]

If ich is always around, what's the point of going fallow for 12 weeks?

[Jan]

I think it's because it's usually kept in check with good husbandry and healthy fish. Once you have an outbreak the load increase and gets large. They start to take over. It's too large for most healthy fish to handle. Just like any other disease. So if there's no host for 12 weeks the load reduces by dying.

 

If ich is always around, what's the point of going fallow for 12 weeks?

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jan

[SunWyrm]

It's a parasite, so it's impossible for it to always be around. It's not in tanks that have just been set up, and it breeds itself out within a year if it's not reintroduced. It can be reintroduced on anything including live rock and inverts. It seems like it's always around as it's very common and difficult to get rid of and qt properly for it. If it dies or it's not introduced, it's not always there.

 

Back to OP, I'd be interested in a way to id some of the diseases that aren't ich and how to tell the difference between them like velvet and how to treat our fish.

Edited May 4, 2012 by YiatzOfEden

[Ryan S]

Back to OP, I'd be interested in a way to id some of the diseases that aren't ich and how to tell the difference between them like velvet and how to treat our fish.

 

A wamas speaker that's an expert on the various diseases/IDing them/treating them would be awesome. I think Jan found someone that might work recently?

[Jan]

Ick can be brought into a new tank through live rock, live sand, macro, inverts as well as fish. I would think the only way to say that any system is 100% free of ick is if dead rock and sand are cured in that system or you make sure that LR and LS and every living thing you are about to place in that system; snails, fish, macro, etc.. is QT'd for 30 or more days. I'd also imagine that since we can't treat LR, LS, snails, macro and other inverts with the same medications and treatment that we use for fish, that we'd need qt set ups for each one of these items or we'll just re-infect or infect or you'd have to QT in stages; inverts 30 days, macro 30 days, etc.. So Unless you're 100% on top of your game with QT from the start (meaning with rock and sand) I'd say we all have a good chance of having ick in our systems.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jan

[Jan]

The best way to Id for differential is to view as many pictures as you can and read about the signs and symptoms. The internet is the best place for this. Ick has many white spots usually small granular looking whereas Lymph disease appears as only a couple of larger fluffy white spots that eventually fall off.

 

It's a parasite, so it's impossible for it to always be around. It's not in tanks that have just been set up, and it breeds itself out within a year if it's not reintroduced. It can be reintroduced on anything including live rock and inverts. It seems like it's always around as it's very common and difficult to get rid of and qt properly for it. If it dies or it's not introduced, it's not always there.

 

Back to OP, I'd be interested in a way to id some of the diseases that aren't ich and how to tell the difference between them like velvet and how to treat our fish.

[davelin315]

If ich is always around, what's the point of going fallow for 12 weeks?

That's why around was in quotes as "around". In the typical system, ich is very easy to have. All it takes is for it to be present in the system once and then have something new introduced periodically to "refresh" it. Can it be eliminated from a system? Sure, but most people don't have the ability to QT everything for the appropriate period of time (ability = patience). You'd need to QT everything you get for long enough for it to run a full life cycle to avoid any future contamination and you'd need to treat every fish you got turning it into a hospital tank versus a QT and treating without any evidence of disease is not really all that advisable.

 

So, it's not always there, but typically it's there as it's very difficult to remove it completely from any system, even those started completely from scratch as you're likely to add something along the way that will bring it into your system.

[Ryan S]

That's why around was in quotes as "around". In the typical system, ich is very easy to have. All it takes is for it to be present in the system once and then have something new introduced periodically to "refresh" it. Can it be eliminated from a system? Sure, but most people don't have the ability to QT everything for the appropriate period of time (ability = patience). You'd need to QT everything you get for long enough for it to run a full life cycle to avoid any future contamination and you'd need to treat every fish you got turning it into a hospital tank versus a QT and treating without any evidence of disease is not really all that advisable.

 

So, it's not always there, but typically it's there as it's very difficult to remove it completely from any system, even those started completely from scratch as you're likely to add something along the way that will bring it into your system.

 

dang dude. making me think setting up a QT isn't really going to be that helpful...

[davelin315]

It's helpful if you're good with it, if you cut corners it won't help at all. The purpose for me of QT is to observe, not treat. As you observe, you may find it necessary to treat or start seeing signs of disease. QT is a relatively nebulous term, though, and some will use generic treatments like copper or hypo to help get rid of some of the more common conditions as well as treat for flukes and worms.

[spankna]

Jan, great thread!

 

For anyone having issues id'ing "spots" just remember if the spots remain after quarantining in hyposalinity, they are likely not a parasite. I traced my bacterial infection back to a LFS supplier who kept all livestock in hyposalinity. After contacting them, they found that their nets were spreading an bacterial infection. The supplier was/is the largest supplier of high end fish and coral.