Ryan S January 28, 2012 Share January 28, 2012 http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquariumLightExperiment.asp#coralList They've added some PAR numbers. To be fair, the Radions are sold as 250w MH equivalents, and are up against 400w and 1000w MH's. So far their growth and coloration are the same as the 400w and 1000w MH's according to Vivid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim January 29, 2012 Share January 29, 2012 I'll vouch for the color with one exception, the green slimer looks better under LED. Can't comment on growth as I was just there on Wednesday and again today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni January 29, 2012 Share January 29, 2012 Yeah, but there are 12 of them versus 4 metal halides I'm actually surprised how low the overall par numbers are in general, though the overall hanging height of 15" for everything probably contributes to that. I would have expected close to 800-1000 at the surface. I'm guessing if you put either light closer to the top you'd get much better par numbers. I think the biggest problem for the radions as I see it is that they just don't cover a large area given the price. Cost of the metal halides - $300 each, $1200 total to light a 7 x 3 footprint...and you could probably use 3 for that footprint versus 12 x 700 = $8400 I think the radions are awesome lights but it's really hard to use that many radion units as a comparison in terms of a real world example. A more reasonable comparison would be to look at a standard size tank, like a 75 and see how 2 radions due versus 2 250W MH. I imagine the radions would hold up really well in that scenario. However, when you get to greater then 24" front to back, you basically need another radion fixture whereas metal halide with a good reflector will cover 3 ft pretty easily. Ultimately, it's dependent on the tank. I think for bigger tanks, the initial upfront cost makes the radions prohibitively expensive, at least compared to other available options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S January 29, 2012 Author Share January 29, 2012 (edited) 12 Radions is extremely expensive, no doubt about it. And imagine if they went with 24 on the whole tank! But, I think you should also consider the long term costs as well. $400/yr in bulbs for the MH side. So that's an extra $4000 over 10 years. Now you're at $5200. And electricity-wise: 2800watts vs 1150watts = an extra $575/yr, or $5750 over 10 years = a total after 10 years of $10,950 vs. $8,400. (of course new technology will come long before 10 years with the same fixture, but I just wanted to point out the additional costs to MHs annually, which do add up!) And I agree, a better comparison is a 250w MH beside a Radion. However, if they do hold up vs 400w and 1000w MH's, that will be more than enough to prove their capability and potential value to a system. Edited January 29, 2012 by Ryan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni January 29, 2012 Share January 29, 2012 That's the problem. No one uses 1000 W MH anymore. Let's just take my tank for example. 72 x 36 footprint, 200 par at sand with a 24" deep tank. Let's assume for the sake of argument that 5 radions could adequately cover it. current lighting: ati powermodule 10 x 80 (1800 new): total wattage 800, bulb replacement 200/yr take it out 5 years: five year cost: 1800+1000 = 2800+ 50/year electricity = 3050 radion x 5 = 3500: total wattage 700, bulb replacement = 0 (assuming that no LEDs fail) five year cost: 3500. At 5 years, it still hasn't broken even. Very few people keep the same tank for 5 years. They either upgrade, downgrade, or get out. Ultimately, radions make sense if you just inherently like LEDs and the color they provide, you like the controllability, or you simply like new gadgets. However, from a purely financial and cost standpoint, they aren't there yet, especially for bigger tanks. I think we kid ourselves in order to justify the crazy amounts we spend on stuff Personally, I really like this light...but since I also enjoy sleeping in the house and not outside, I'll stay with my own light for now: http://www.aquaticselite.com/GENESIS_T5_560_p/ge-t5-560.htm Vivid is in the business of selling radions. They don't really make money if people stay with their T5s or Metal halides. That said, I think 2 radions is going to be pretty sweet over your 150 I got a chance to see them at banky's house and they are very, very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S January 29, 2012 Author Share January 29, 2012 I think we kid ourselves in order to justify the crazy amounts we spend on stuff QFT. 100% guilty as charged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trockafella January 30, 2012 Share January 30, 2012 Its funny with all these number comparisons, everyone lists the energy cost for MH or T5, but LEDs still use electricity. It may be a fraction, but its never in the equation.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad January 30, 2012 Share January 30, 2012 Also, Marine Depot told me that LEDs should be replaced every 5 years. Which usually means replacing the fixture vice individual components within the fixture. Yes, I realize that they benefit from that recommendation. And it is contrary to the general LED manufacturer recommendation to replace after 50,000 hours - about 10 years of 12 hours per day - a time which the LED manufactures say the maximum output of the average LED drops below 75% of the intensity from when it was new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S April 18, 2012 Author Share April 18, 2012 I just learned that Vivid Aquariums & Mr Saltwater Tank will be releasing the comparison video in the near future. I'll post it as soon as it's up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trockafella April 18, 2012 Share April 18, 2012 I just learned that Vivid Aquariums & Mr Saltwater Tank will be releasing the comparison video in the near future. I'll post it as soon as it's up. All I can picture is the huge smile on your face.!! I will be interested in seeing it as well.. Although im sure it will be bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S April 18, 2012 Author Share April 18, 2012 All I can picture is the huge smile on your face.!! I will be interested in seeing it as well.. Although im sure it will be bias. haha. well. honestly... i have a feeling the final results will be "the sides are equal". same growth rate, same coloration. which i guess would be good for radions? obviously i'd prefer the radions dominated the MHs, but remember, they were up against 400w and 1000w MHs and the radions are supposed to be equal to 250w MHs. (MR SWT taking control of the video definitely adds a bias (unfortunately) for all viewers to keep in mind). i am most interested in how the radions performed on the 30" tall tank. they were hung 15" above the water, giving them a total distance to the bottom of 45". my tank is 27" tall, and 8" above the water, or 35" from top to bottom. i am concerned about the lack of par at the bottom, so hopefully the video/review touches upon the depth issue. (and I am SURE 400w and 1000w MHs have no problem punching through to the bottom of the tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan S May 31, 2012 Author Share May 31, 2012 I just learned that Vivid Aquariums & Mr Saltwater Tank will be releasing the comparison video in the near future. I'll post it as soon as it's up. Here it is suckas! http://www.mrsaltwatertank.com/11-radions-2800-watts-of-metal-halides-and-one-800-gallon-show-tank/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecrackerbob May 31, 2012 Share May 31, 2012 I will still pass on LED... I just double checked my calculations and MH or T5 is still cheaper by my assumptions. I would be very interested if anyone has a analysis that shows otherwise though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k May 31, 2012 Share May 31, 2012 I will still pass on LED... I just double checked my calculations and MH or T5 is still cheaper by my assumptions. I would be very interested if anyone has a analysis that shows otherwise though. Bob- your assumptions are wrong. The difference in just electricity alone over 5 years is staggering. Figure it out based upon a typical light system of 750w vs. 200w of LED. If you use a 2x250mh w/ 4) 54w T5's as a typical 4' light system and you replace it with 2 Radions, over the course of 5 years you'll replace: 10) 250w HQI bulbs and 20) T5 bulbs. That's $1000 in bulbs alone. The typical light system is roughly $1k and 2 Radions are $1300. It's simply a no brainer to figure out which is a smarter system to buy. I know you want to doubt that LED's grow coral just as well as mh/t5 combo, but it does. Do you remember when your grandfather didn't want to trade in his horse and buggy for one of those new horseless carriages that Henry Ford was producing? Same argument different century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 Who have you seen that ends up being happy with 2 radions? I think Ryan is up to like 8 now You can skew the numbers in this game for either to come out ahead. That's the biggest takeaway I have from statistics... you can make them say whatever you want them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 And by the way, every time I see that wonderful tank vivid has, I am super jealous and I really really want it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 Bob- your assumptions are wrong. The difference in just electricity alone over 5 years is staggering. Figure it out based upon a typical light system of 750w vs. 200w of LED. If you use a 2x250mh w/ 4) 54w T5's as a typical 4' light system and you replace it with 2 Radions, over the course of 5 years you'll replace: 10) 250w HQI bulbs and 20) T5 bulbs. That's $1000 in bulbs alone. The typical light system is roughly $1k and 2 Radions are $1300. It's simply a no brainer to figure out which is a smarter system to buy. I know you want to doubt that LED's grow coral just as well as mh/t5 combo, but it does. Do you remember when your grandfather didn't want to trade in his horse and buggy for one of those new horseless carriages that Henry Ford was producing? Same argument different century. IMHO, your comparison is not accurate. A radian is supposed to be roughly equivalent to a 250W MH fixture. Thus, you are adding 4 T5 bulbs to the MH side that you should not for an equal comparison. Looking at the fair comparison of 2x250W to 2x radian, and the purchase price you quoted is way off. A dual 250w ballast is $200 and reflectors are 125-150 each. Call it $500 total as compared to the $1300 you quote for radians. That's $800 less up front on the MH system. If you buy used, which is real easy to do right now with lots of good deals around, you can be even less. Now, about bulbs, if you replace once a year over 5 years for 10 bulbs, its just not $1000 in bulbs. The Pheonix 14k bulbs I use are less than $50 each. So, you are talking more like $500. Add that in and we are still $300 less in favor of the MH. But, there is a fundamental flaw in this logic that is being ignored - I seriously doubt that radian will run trouble free for 5 years. That would be like running a solaris today. I'm not even sure if there are any solaris's still running today and would guess they have all been replaced or have failed by now. Over 2-3 years, it is far more likely that the fixture has failed completely or it has been replaced with something else or some of the LEDs have failed, etc. LEDs just don't have that good of a track record. After solaris, there was the aqua illumination (AI) craze, then AI sol, and now radian. Six months from now it will be something else. The few of the AI systems that I am aware of being run for a long period of time all had a high number of LED failures. The LEDs themselves are capable of running a long time, but the saltwater causes problems, electronics fail, etc. Finally, the electricity cost difference is simply not "staggering". Straight from ecotech, the radian consumes 130-140W. So your 2x system is 260W compared to 500W of the halide (I know there is a loss in the ballast, but I don't have a sheet handy to know the total draw so run with it). 240W times say 6 hrs a day is about 500 kWh a year or about $60. However, many people who run LEDs find that their heaters start running more especially at night wiping out any electricity savings. Basically, the only way electricity savings are a big enough plus on the side of LEDs is if you previously had to run a chiller and were able to take it offline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecrackerbob June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 @Hypertech- I ABSOLUTELY agree with your analysis!!! you are making the exact assumptions that I do when I put all the numbers into a spreadsheet. With my analysis I did recently I came up with a savings of $100 over 10yrs in favor of LEDs... that is not nearly enough for me to go through the trouble to switch. Over the last few years I have bought a 2x250 (icecap) MW retrofit for 200$ off of someone who swithced to LED and a 6x55w (3, 2xbulb sets) off of another seller for $200. FWIW- I am giving all the LED users of the world the benefit that the systems actually work. My criticisms of LED are two major points- 1)I dont like the look, and 2)(and what my post above was about) is that I really dont see the "major" cost savings that so many people tout when you put all the numbers in a spreadsheet and add it up. AND as Hpyertech mentioned, there is the BIG assumption that over a 10y analysis that the LED fixure wont fail... Im glad that im not the only one who has run the numbers and come up with this. THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mann June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 thats 130-140w at full intensity if you even run it that high. 50-60% intensity your lookin at only 60-70w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firecrackerbob June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 do you typically run LEDs at 50% intensity? (Just to be clear, Im really not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything. I really would like to be more educated about LEDs. I really just cant see the advantages that people talk about.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 if you run it at 50-60% intensity, then we should probably be comparing to 150W halides and the energy difference is still about the same. Either way, its a difference, but its not earth shattering and could end up being close to zero depending on what your heater does now that the lights aren't heating the tank as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 (edited) do you typically run LEDs at 50% intensity? (Just to be clear, Im really not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything. I really would like to be more educated about LEDs. I really just cant see the advantages that people talk about.) I think the real advantage lies in that the lights are very directional. So, you can use the light more efficiently by having it directed pretty much straight down into the tank instead of having light spill all over like you get with some halide reflectors. This way you can get by with less light (and less consumed energy) because it is more focused where you want it. Don't get me wrong, LEDs have their place, but the reasons stated above are, IMHO, simply not convincing. I plan to use them to supplement my MH. I've got an actinic bar all built up and just need to mount it. I'm sticking with the MH main lights for two principal reasons: 1) I like the way it looks better; and (2) if something goes wrong its the bulb or the ballast and both are cheap and easy to replace. LEDs can be repaired too, but there is no standard for them so you have to hope that the manufacturer is around with replacement parts or bust out the soldering iron. Edited June 1, 2012 by hypertech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mann June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 with a radion your paying for the name and the controllability. Other LEDS are way less expensive such as the F series which is $1300 for a 72" fixture. that is compairable to 400w MH. it would take 3 400W MH to get the same coverage on a 72" tank. http://sunbritelighting.com/SBF-Series.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Mann June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 do you typically run LEDs at 50% intensity? (Just to be clear, Im really not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything. I really would like to be more educated about LEDs. I really just cant see the advantages that people talk about.) No but not every LED colors run at 100% most people run the reds and greens at a very low % therefore using alot less wattage the only colors most people use 100% of are white and blue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypertech June 1, 2012 Share June 1, 2012 (edited) I don't believe a word they say on their ratings. It looks like puffing to me. You think a 400W MH would only give 200 par at the bottom? I get more than that with a 250. Plus, they say stupid things like this: "produces far less heat due to our built in heat sink". Heat sinks do not reduce heat production. They transport the heat away from the source so that it can be dissipated across a large area into the air (or water, etc). You don't actually want the heat sink to be cold. It should be warm in most cases. If the heat sink is cold, there probably isn't a good transfer of heat from the source to the heat sink likely due to poor design or poor assembly. That will lead to early device failure. Still, this is just minor differences from the analysis above. You can push it a little one way or the other based on exactly what you look at, but the bottom line is that it isn't this super huge savings that no rational person could deny. That's just not true. There are good reasons for getting LEDs just like there are good reasons for going with MH or T5. Edited June 1, 2012 by hypertech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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