Dave W's 3000 gal plankton/reef tank

[dave w]

I have no clue either, most glues need two non non permeable materials to adhere. But another idea came to mind, sandblasting. If you protect what you don't want roughed up you can smooth the lower areas. Keep the look, and maybe add traction. Without using glue. It might take a lot of blasting to get that effect though. It sounds like you have plenty of experience with this material, do you think it would work?

 

After sleeping on the idea, I think your idea of adding traction with strips of stick on material would be a great idea, just like the kind of stuff they use on shower stalls. Something tells me that granite is such a hard material that sandblasting would be very hard to do, but I'll look into it.

[dave w]

Am I looking at this correctly in that the water flow will be coming "up" out of the fiberglass tube?

 

It seems to me that you're going to get a lot of settlement right here at the elbow because the detritus won't necessarily be pushed up. I really like your idea of the settlement chamber, but I wonder if it's big enough for the detritus to be able to fall out of the water stream... will you have any way of siphoning out detritus from the bottom of the tube if need be?

 

L8 2 RISE, you are right, the tube upwells into the refugium and there may be detritus settlement in the tube itself. It is hard to tell from the pictures, but the bottom of the settlement chamber is about 30 inches lower in elevation than the rest of the system and the baffled chamber is about 4' long for detritus to fall out to the bottom. Also, the hole "out" of the settlement chamber that goes to the tube is about 16" off the bottom of the settlement cone, so I think there is a good collection point at the bottom of the settlement cone for sump pumps to sit and pump out detritus.

 

While this may collect most of the detritus, some will almost certainly settle in the tube. The tube slopes up from the settlement chamber up to the refugium, perhaps an occasional counter current will wash detritus back down into the chamber and clean out the tube. If detritus builds up in the tube and can't be washed back into the chamber by reversing the water flow, siphoning is a good suggestion. But the tube is about 8' long so reaching the far end could be difficult.

 

An even more difficult problem will come the day the sump pumps fail. Even if this is many years away, I need a way to pull out the old subersible pump and install a new one. Perhaps a nylon rope pulls it out and a pole pushes the new one into place. Or perhaps I remove the baffles and oyster reef, put on the scuba tank and climb into the settlement chamber to work. Maybe I will have a friend who is small enough to work where my 6' frame cannot.

Edited September 3, 2012 by dave w

[LanglandJoshua]

Maybe I will have a friend who is small enough to work where my 6' frame cannot.

That poor soul!

 

I would look into using a power head to stir things up, before asking anyone to go into the settlement chamber. I use a turkey baster to stir up detris in my refugiums. Its not 100% effective, but for what your doing I don't think you need it to be, so an occasional power head blast could do the trick. I think even an occasional backflow would still allow the waste to build up in corners. But it could work.

 

*I love how my phone always mixes up random words with what I really mean to type...*

Edited September 3, 2012 by LanglandJoshua

[dave w]

I would look into using a power head to stir things up, before asking anyone to go into the settlement chamber.

 

Joshua, thanks for mentioning this. With the main flow of water being about 16" above the bottom of the settlement cone, I'd hope that almost any type of current from either direction will make detritus fall to the bottom of the settlement cone. A turkey baster or powerhead would do nicely.

[dave w]

I've been busy getting a business started and it has taken time off my tank build, but I keep thinking how automated filtration and live food can make it easier to keep corals in a big tank.

 

I think I've come to the conclusion (this week! If you've read this thread you've seen how fast ideas keep changing), that the easiest auto filtration may be a series of paralell glass panes in the refugium set 3/4" apart. A spinning 1" bottle brush runs between two panes to the end, then moves over 3/4" and returns spinning between the next two panes. I think I have room for about 40 of these panes. I hope it will be simple to automate the bottle brush movement by a 2 axis stepper motor. The stepper motor would run 4 feet, move over 3/4", then move back 4 feet. This may accomplish two goals: first, the large surface area will convert dissolved nutrients to bacteria and algae. Second, freshly spun off bacteria and algae washes through the tank as live plankton for filter feeders.

 

As plankton falls to the bottom it will be swept into the settlement trap for nutrient removal so I am thinking that a bare bottom tank best complements a settlement trap. In my opinion, fast detritus removal will be better than great filtration. Water flow through flared fittings pushes detritus across the tank bottom to the settlement trap and a sandy bottom would just hinder the sweep of detritus. Maybe 5 or 10 minutes of water flow across the bottom, then wait five minutes for the dust to settle, then five seconds of the submersible pump to remove brown water.

 

I wanted to pump brown water to 750 gallon sumps where it could grow lots of brine shrimp, pods and rotifers. But smarter people pointed out that there are so few calories left in detritus that it would be better dumped than recycled. So instead, a micro pump controlling several gallons of high calorie food (veggie juice, emulsified fish oil) from a small refridgerator would better enrich zooplankton to feed to the display tank.

 

The goals are reliable and automatic systems for good cleaning, live food and high water quality. Please give me more of your good comments and criticisms on these ideas.

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 22, 2012 by dave w

[zygote2k]

Big ATS and a dump bucket. Keep it simple. Now you're talking crazy with a big mechanical contraption that uses bottle brushes...

[dave w]

Big ATS and a dump bucket. Keep it simple. Now you're talking crazy with a big mechanical contraption that uses bottle brushes...

 

Rob, I can always count on you to bring me down to earth. But I'll put in a lot of thought and effort for an automated cleaning system. After a year or two caring of a tank it seems I always get too lazy or busy and fail to clean it often enough, and then it is just a matter time before some disaster occurs. Auto cleaning and feeding systems are very appealing to me.

[LanglandJoshua]

I have to agree, the most complicated I would go for is a large settlement chamber with power heads that turn the water in a cyclone motion every thirty minutes or so. And maybe a rotating arm to stir the stuff in the middle, like a kalk stirrer. I would have a pump export the waste during the cyclone.

 

I like your first idea, if you go ahead with it I think it would be a fun complicated little challenge. But you know it would become known as the clubs Rube Goldburg machine!

[dave w]

I have to agree, the most complicated I would go for is a large settlement chamber with power heads that turn the water in a cyclone motion every thirty minutes or so. And maybe a rotating arm to stir the stuff in the middle, like a kalk stirrer. I would have a pump export the waste during the cyclone.

 

I like your first idea, if you go ahead with it I think it would be a fun complicated little challenge. But you know it would become known as the clubs Rube Goldburg machine!

 

 

Joshua, If you think that's Rube Goldberg, wait till you see how I plan to concentrate rotifers, enrich them and feed them to corals. I think about 8 solenoids are involved!

 

But seriously, few things are easier to automate than water by using pumps, solenoids and timers. I think automation makes large tanks easier to maintain than regular tanks. Although I'm the only one that appears to think this way.

[zygote2k]

I'm a firm believer in automation, just not the kind of automation that I have to invent first.

Get it filled with water, run it in basic mode then tweak as needed.

[Coral Hind]

I have a question about your stairs, are you planning to leave the run or tread area as it is?

[Der ABT]

if the pumps are in a long tube that is hard to get to (ie need a rope to get them out) then why not use two ropes...one on each side so you can pull it out for changing with one rope and pull it back in with the other rope once changed (or just make a large loop if possible.

 

definately ALOT of thought going into this...not to mention effort.

[dave w]

I'm a firm believer in automation, just not the kind of automation that I have to invent first.

Get it filled with water, run it in basic mode then tweak as needed.

 

 

OK Rob, this is very good advice. I should at least cycle the tank before I start throwing complex equipment at it.

[dave w]

I have a question about your stairs, are you planning to leave the run or tread area as it is?

 

Coral Hind, each step is a 1.5" box so I could put some cement on the bottom as a bed to 3 cm granite or a tile with carborundum grit. I need to fill each tread box until it is level. Why do you ask?

[dave w]

if the pumps are in a long tube that is hard to get to (ie need a rope to get them out) then why not use two ropes...one on each side so you can pull it out for changing with one rope and pull it back in with the other rope once changed (or just make a large loop if possible.

 

definately ALOT of thought going into this...not to mention effort.

 

Der ABT, this is a great idea! Two polypropylene or nylon ropes will allow me to do any pump moving that I want. In spite of all my thinking on the subject, such a simple idea never occurred to me.

[Coral Hind]

Coral Hind, each step is a 1.5" box so I could put some cement on the bottom as a bed to 3 cm granite or a tile with carborundum grit. I need to fill each tread box until it is level. Why do you ask?

It looked like a trip hazard as it is so I figured you planned to fill them, I was just curious as to what you planned to use. It sounds like it is going to look very nice when finished.

[dave w]

It sounds like it is going to look very nice when finished.

 

Thanks for the compliment Coral Hind. I really enjoyed the time you came out to see it. I think it will now be done in time for the November presidential election. That would be the second Tuesday in November........... 2016?

 

But seriously I think I will get water in it this fall. Not that any of my other predictions were accurate.

[dave w]

Help, please....! I am pulling wire in my greenhouse and have a wire sizing question. I think I will use 24v AC solenoids to minimize issues of high voltage in wet areas. Although I don't have much choice with powerheads and pumps on 110v AC, at least where I have a choice I can make all the solenoids 24v.

 

My longest wire runs probably are going to be around 35'. What size wire should I pull to trip 24v AC solenoids? I hope thermostat wire will do. I don't mind going one gauge bigger to be sure. The solenoids will be wired to a Reef Angel or arduino type of controller.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Chad]

I'm assuming you're going from the arduino through a relay to power the solenoids...

 

What amperage is required to run the solenoids? And does 35' mean that 70' of wiring is needed to complete the ckt?

[dave w]

Chad, yes I will go from the arduino or other controller through a relay and 70' would be needed to complete the circuit.

 

I looked on the internet and it appears that a standard 24 VAC irrigation sprinkler solenoid uses a maximum of 350 mA inrush and a maximum 250 mA holding current. Whenever I hooked up sprinkler valves in years past I ran 22 or 24 gauge thermostat wire to them, and I remember pulling wire as much as a couple hundred feet. But my memory is often wrong and I appreciate the advice of those who know electronics better than me. (That's nearly everyone.)

 

 

 

 

 

[dave w]

Chad, stop the presses! I just went onto ebay to see what's for sale and remembered that my gravity flow situation requires zero pressure solenoids which are 12 volt, DC, and they pull 500 milliamps.

[Chad]

Assuming all other factors equal, I prefer to use AC for signal wires on anything that will be traveling some distance since losses are a little lower (the reason power distribution is AC).

 

More info here http://duesenburg.com/wire_gauge_reference_table.htm

 

Based on the amperage (I'm assuming each solenoid will be a separately controlled circuit - which is probably how I would set it up), the way I read the chart (with a little conservatism) I'd go with 18g wire.

 

 

[dave w]

Assuming all other factors equal, I prefer to use AC for signal wires on anything that will be traveling some distance since losses are a little lower (the reason power distribution is AC).

 

More info here http://duesenburg.co...rence_table.htm

 

Based on the amperage (I'm assuming each solenoid will be a separately controlled circuit - which is probably how I would set it up), the way I read the chart (with a little conservatism) I'd go with 18g wire.

 

Chad, I found it hard to use the duesenburg formulas because I'm so stupid about electricity. Plus I couldn't find where AC or DC were factored in and I remember something about greater voltage drop with DC than AC. So I found a voltage drop calculator online which factored in DC, and there was only 1% voltage drop. However the smallest wire gauge listed on the pulldown menu was 14 gauge, and I'm pretty sure that 18 gauge wire would have more voltage drop, correct? In any case, I also recall that DC powered devices tend to be very forgiving of voltage variation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chad]

I don't know about the part of DC devices being less sensitive, I can thing of extreme examples both ways, I wouldn't be surprised if a solenoid isn't very sensitive to a specific voltage, I'd expect it to be more current sensitive... The rest is true, though.

[dave w]

Thanks Chad. Regarding the sensitive part, I keep seeing DC devices that will work "between 8v and 30v" and that seems like a wider variation than AC devices. I know that if I run a small gauge extension cord a hundred or two hundred feet to run a drill, the voltage drop is so great that I burn the drill up. Don't ask me how I became such an expert on the effect of voltage drop on AC motors.