copper in live rock

[guppychao]

have a friend that has some issues with his tank, according to him copper leach into his tank from some improper plumbing. (dont know the details). however he says that he cant keep any coral, but snails survive.

if cooper is the culprit and imbedded in his rock, how do you rectify this, has about 500+ lbs of live rock. can he keep coral if there is copper in the tank? if so what types?

 

the tank is about 4 ft tall and about 6 ft long but onyl about 2 ft deep, and he only has 2, 250 watters, dont think this is enough, but any lighting suggestions

dont know what the rest of the parameters are.

 

thanks

any input will be helpful

[sdah0414]

First step would be to make sure there is copper in the tank. You can get a test kit pretty cheap.

[Sikryd]

First step would be to make sure there is copper in the tank. You can get a test kit pretty cheap.

 

+1

 

AFAIK, I don't think there is anything you can do if it is indeed in the rock now, except for use it for a FOWLR tank.

 

I would put some in a seperate container for a few days and test the water to see if it is in the rock vs. the current tank it is in.

[Coral Hind]

Has he tested for copper? Was it tank plumbing or house plumbing that introduced the copper? I would have thought the copper would kill the snails as well as the corals.

 

Have him run a Poly-Filter or CupriSorb in the filter system. If copper is being leached out they will remove it from the water and change colors if there is indeed copper present. It is actually a good idea to always keep a small bag of CupriSorb in the sump just in case of an accident, like a child dropping pennies in the tank. I have heard that one a few times over the years. CupriSorb does not get used up with organics like a Poly-Filter does so it can stay in the sump for years.

[davelin315]

Has he tested for copper? Was it tank plumbing or house plumbing that introduced the copper? I would have thought the copper would kill the snails as well as the corals.

 

Have him run a Poly-Filter or CupriSorb in the filter system. If copper is being leached out they will remove it from the water and change colors if there is indeed copper present. It is actually a good idea to always keep a small bag of CupriSorb in the sump just in case of an accident, like a child dropping pennies in the tank. I have heard that one a few times over the years. CupriSorb does not get used up with organics like a Poly-Filter does so it can stay in the sump for years.

David, that's a great idea, thanks for sharing that. Those of us with small kids are grateful!

[guppychao]

only the older pennies are mde from cooper

[Coral Hind]

only the older pennies are mde from cooper

 

Pennies from 1982 on up still have copper, it is just clad over a zinc core. Still bad if it ends up in your tank. Now the 1943 was all steel. Dimes and quarters also have copper in them.

[extreme_tooth_decay]

only the older pennies are mde from cooper

 

 

Actually they all are. The newer ones have a copper coating over a zinc core.

 

I've always thought it was a little strange to think that copper would leach from a solid source into a tank. I think I'm going to do an experiment...

 

Put a dozen cents and a length of copper pipe in a vacant 2.5 G tank with LS and LR. Test for copper after a month. Sound reasonable? Bets?

 

 

 

 

Trivia: Oh, and by the way, US cents are not "pennies". They are "cents". Just a little trivia for ya...some folks in the 'biz actually get really upset when US cents are referred to as "pennies"

Edited January 11, 2010 by extreme_tooth_decay

[Amuze]

I can picture it now, the 4 year old tossing pennies in the sump and making wishes.

[extreme_tooth_decay]

I can picture it now, the 4 year old tossing pennies in the sump and making wishes.

 

 

Cents! Cents! Arrgghhhh!

[Coral Hind]

Hey, the US Mint refers to them as "pennies" so I will too.

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_f...tion=fun_facts2

 

I think Paul B mentioned that back in the day he would keep pennies in the tank to keep ich away because there were no other remedies.

[L8 2 RISE]

Just keep in mind for that experiment that if copper does leach, you wont be able to use a glass tank because copper will stay in the silicone, nor an acrylic tank because the copper will stay in the acrylic

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Hey, the US Mint refers to them as "pennies" so I will too.

http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_f...tion=fun_facts2

 

 

Hm, I can't help but notice that every place the word "penny" appears on that page it is in parenthesis. While, every time the proper word "cent" is used, it is not in parenthesis. Truly a second-class citizen that other word is. Recall that when the US was establishing it's coinage, it was rebelling from Britain, who really do have pennies. That is why we have dollars and cents and not shillings and pence and such.

 

 

I think Paul B mentioned that back in the day he would keep pennies in the tank to keep ich away because there were no other remedies.

 

I wonder if he tested his tank for copper, or was just guessing that it was entering the water. Or maybe he just likes the look of it...isn't he the one with the beer can in his tank?

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Just keep in mind for that experiment that if copper does leach, you wont be able to use a glass tank because copper will stay in the silicone, nor an acrylic tank because the copper will stay in the acrylic

 

 

Well, 2 things there:

 

1) I don't mind sacrificing a 2.5G tank and it's LR and LS for the experiment. Especially since I already have one. I might even put a peppermint shrimp in it just as a second "test".

 

2) I wouldn't hesitate for one second to use a tank that had copper lurking in the silicone from some previous copper in the tank. It would be very difficult to make me believe that there is enough residual there to cause any harm. Especially with all the filtering and water changes I do.

[treesprite]

Just keep in mind for that experiment that if copper does leach, you wont be able to use a glass tank because copper will stay in the silicone, nor an acrylic tank because the copper will stay in the acrylic

There was a post here a couple months ago about this. I and other people have had corals in tanks that used to have copper used in them, with no problem at all, and also I have a piece of liverock in my clown tank that was in a tank with copper, still no problem. It depends on the size of the tank as to whether any leaching copper raises concentration about a safe level.

Edited January 11, 2010 by treesprite

[Sikryd]

I've used tanks that were dosed with copper to house corals after I cleaned them out. It was in an old 20g I used as my QT tank. I didn't loose any corals. I might have been lucky though.

 

Copper in the rock I would worry about though since I haven't ever dealt with that.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Sikryd

[L8 2 RISE]

Well, 2 things there:

 

1) I don't mind sacrificing a 2.5G tank and it's LR and LS for the experiment. Especially since I already have one. I might even put a peppermint shrimp in it just as a second "test".

 

2) I wouldn't hesitate for one second to use a tank that had copper lurking in the silicone from some previous copper in the tank. It would be very difficult to make me believe that there is enough residual there to cause any harm. Especially with all the filtering and water changes I do.

 

 

There was a post here a couple months ago about this. I and other people have had corals in tanks that used to have copper used in them, with no problem at all, and also I have a piece of liverock in my clown tank that was in a tank with copper, still no problem. It depends on the size of the tank as to whether any leaching copper raises concentration about a safe level.

 

 

I've used tanks that were dosed with copper to house corals after I cleaned them out. It was in an old 20g I used as my QT tank. I didn't loose any corals. I might have been lucky though.

 

Copper in the rock I would worry about though since I haven't ever dealt with that.

 

Ok, maybe I'm just over careful about this because I'm going to be dealing with cephalopods, but definitely don't plan on keeping a ceph in one of those tanks after. I know several people that have had ceph issues caused by copper poisoning from the silicone or acrylic in tanks formerly used with copper.

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Ok, maybe I'm just over careful about this because I'm going to be dealing with cephalopods, but definitely don't plan on keeping a ceph in one of those tanks after. I know several people that have had ceph issues caused by copper poisoning from the silicone or acrylic in tanks formerly used with copper.

 

 

How do they know that was the what was causing the issue? Did they test for copper?

[paul b]

I think Paul B mentioned that back in the day he would keep pennies in the tank to keep ich away because there were no other remedies.

 

If I remember it was 14 pennies to the gallon.

 

I wonder if he tested his tank for copper, or was just guessing that it was entering the water. Or maybe he just likes the look of it...isn't he the one with the beer can in his tank?

 

They were all old pennies because that was in 1971, there also were no test kits.

Now that beer can, thats for dosing aluminum.

 

In february I am coming to DC to speak at WAMAS, so now I won't have to tell the story of the pennies to cure ich.

By the way, that tank is still running, so much for the theory that after you use copper, you can't have a reef.

 

What beer can?

Edited January 11, 2010 by paul b

[L8 2 RISE]

How do they know that was the what was causing the issue? Did they test for copper?

 

There are visible signs of copper poisoning in cephs, and in many cases the amount of copper needed to poison a ceph won't show up on your average copper test kit. Though in some cases, it did show up, so it was obvious. It's pretty interesting, Ceph blood is blue because it is "copper based" however copper is deadly poisonous to them. Don't ask me how it all works, I'm just telling you all what the papers and experts have told me, no idea on the chemistry of it all. But no matter, we digress, sorry.

[paul b]

Ceph blood is blue because it is "copper based

Horseshoe crab blood is also blue for the same reason.

As are all inverts including paracites, which is why copper kills all inverts.

[L8 2 RISE]

Horseshoe crab blood is also blue for the same reason.

As are all inverts including paracites, which is why copper kills all inverts.

 

hmmm, what I've been wondering, which maybe you can answer then, is how do they get the copper into their blood in the first place?

[davelin315]

I can picture it now, the 4 year old tossing pennies in the sump and making wishes.

"Please, get the silly colors out of the tank! I want white corals!"

 

Tosses in cent (penny).

[paul b]

hmmm, what I've been wondering, which maybe you can answer then, is how do they get the copper into their blood in the first place?

 

I guess the same way we get iron into our blood, a little at a time from the food. The food we eat has iron in it. If we don't get enough iron, eventually, we die. There is copper in seawater and in the food horseshoe crabs eat.

They are about 3/16" when they hatch and I would imagine don't need much copper at one time as they grow.

Copper is very common on earth as a trace element.