Considering My Return

[discretekarma]

I'm guessing that some of you remember me. I had some tough times with my 180 reef crashing and then had to have back surgery twice so I opted to get out for a while. Now that things have settled down, I'm thinking about coming back. There are a few things I need to figure out prior to making my decision (decision = convincing my wife). When I had my 180, we lived in my parents basement apartment. I actually had no clue how much my aquarium hobby/habit was costing them. I never asked and they never told. My dad has a 92 corner that he bought from SteveOutlaw a few years ago that I'm thinking about trying to get from him. My wife and I bought our own house since I've been gone. The main consideration is how much it'll cost us to run. I'll list what it has to see if anyone can give me a realistic idea of monthly costs for utilities. Not including dosing, fish food, and that type of thing.

 

92 corner

1 x 250 watt MH light

Deltec skimmer- I don't remember the model but he bought from Steve with the tank

RO/DI (I think from The Filter Guys) 5 stage I believe

Oceans Motions 4 way

Wavy Sea wavemaker

Neptune AC3

Some sort of ATO

small sump (maybe 10 or 20 gallons) whatever steve had

 

I can't remember much else. The only other piece of info that may be important is that I run a dehumidifier in the basement where the tank will be so I'm sure I'll have some significant evaporation.

 

I know that I won't get exact costs so I'm just looking for a ballpark. I'm not going to be running a kalk stirrer or any reactors for now. Just the things I listed and some usual Koralia maybe a heater. Thanks for reading. I've missed my tanks and WAMAS way too much.

[Origami]

Here's some back-of-the-envelope calculations for electricity, salt & replacing RO/DI:

 

Assuming 250W for your light (12 hrs per day), 80W for your return pump (24 hrs per day), 200W of heater (6 hrs per day - just a guess), and 150W of miscellaneous such as your skimmer, oceans motion, etc (24 hrs per day) - you're looking at around 300 kWhr of electricity per month. At $0.157 per kWHr (this is the average kWHr cost in MD for August 2009 according to this table at the DOE: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html ), electricity is going to be around $50 per month. I've not accounted here for any dehumidifier that you might run, or for the cost or savings of heating or cooling your house that your tank might have. I don't know what effect local taxes and other surcharges might have on your electric bill - but there WILL be an impact. You could probably call your electric company and give them the kWHr that you would use and have them estimate what the bottom line cost would be to your bill.

 

Assuming 10 gallons of water change per week, 4.3 weeks per month, and $45 for a 200 gallon box of salt, your salt costs will run around $10 a month.

 

Water costs are probably somewhat negligible.

 

Budget $10 a month for replacing RO/DI filters (every 4-6 months).

 

Hope to see you back soon!

[jason the filter freak]

I'd love to see you guys back in, let me know if you need a hand with anything

[davelin315]

Here's some back-of-the-envelope calculations for electricity, salt & replacing RO/DI:

 

Assuming 250W for your light (12 hrs per day), 80W for your return pump (24 hrs per day), 200W of heater (6 hrs per day - just a guess), and 150W of miscellaneous such as your skimmer, oceans motion, etc (24 hrs per day) - you're looking at around 300 kWhr of electricity per month. At $0.157 per kWHr (this is the average kWHr cost in MD for August 2009 according to this table at the DOE: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html ), electricity is going to be around $50 per month. I've not accounted here for any dehumidifier that you might run, or for the cost or savings of heating or cooling your house that your tank might have. I don't know what effect local taxes and other surcharges might have on your electric bill - but there WILL be an impact. You could probably call your electric company and give them the kWHr that you would use and have them estimate what the bottom line cost would be to your bill.

 

Assuming 10 gallons of water change per week, 4.3 weeks per month, and $45 for a 200 gallon box of salt, your salt costs will run around $10 a month.

 

Water costs are probably somewhat negligible.

 

Budget $10 a month for replacing RO/DI filters (every 4-6 months).

 

Hope to see you back soon!

 

If Bill is in San Diego and is traveling on an eastbound train at 45 mph, but gets off in Dallas and transfers to a bus that travels North to Chicago and then boards a train in Chicago that runs eastbound at 68 mph, and Jack is on a bus that travels North from Gainesville at 42 mph with 1/3 of the trip being traveled at 78 mph, and both will end up in DC, what speed does Meg need to eat her snack at in order to be there to pick both of them up in NYC after they take the DC-NYC connector bus during rush hour traffic on the NJ Turnpike if she's leaving from Freeport, Maine, in her Dodge Dakota Pick Up Truck that has 6 yards of mulch in a trailer that reduces her mpg to 11.7 highway if she's traveling at an average speed of 57.2 mph?

 

Tom, when are you going to do that calculation for my tank?

[Origami]

Tom, when are you going to do that calculation for my tank?

 

Meg will probably never make it to NYC. With the truck and trailer, she'll probably catch the eye of some Maine survivalist, and the two will live happily ever after.

 

You REALLY don't want your wife to know the answer to that question (about how much it costs to run your tank), now, do you Dave?

 

Oh, and DK, budget another $10 per month to replace that 250W lamp. It may be high, but we all know you'll spend it in other places.

[discretekarma]

Thanks. I guess that's better than expected. I was thinking the RODI waste would be more of a factor. That was a much better answer than I expected.

[steveoutlaw]

Welcome back!! The skimmer is a Deltec AP600 and I believe the main pump for the OM 4 way is a Reeflo Dart.

 

As for the RODI - a $89 investment for a booster pump will drastically cut down on your waste water.

 

Good luck and let me know when you're ready for some frags.

[Origami]

Thanks. I guess that's better than expected. I was thinking the RODI waste would be more of a factor. That was a much better answer than I expected.

 

The way I figure it, a good RO/DI system is about 20% efficient. This means that, 4 gallons is wasted for every 1 gallon produced. Changing out 43 gallons per month, plus 1 gallon per day of top off, results in a need for around 75 gallons of RO/DI per month. To produce that, you'll consume around 375 gallons of city water - let's just say 500 gallons to keep it really round.

 

The water & sewer rates for Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission (WSSC) can be found here: http://www.wssc.dst.md.us/service/rates.cfm

 

If you use $7 per 1000 gallons as the water + sewer rate, that 500 gallons consumed costs you around $3.50 a month. That's why I set it aside as somewhat negligible.

[Origami]

Welcome back!! The skimmer is a Deltec AP600 and I believe the main pump for the OM 4 way is a Reeflo Dart.

 

As for the RODI - a $89 investment for a booster pump will drastically cut down on your waste water.

 

Good luck and let me know when you're ready for some frags.

 

The Dart will probably burn closer to 100-130W. This is slightly higher than my 80W estimate, but not enough to be a major impact to your electricity costs.

[angel not fish]

Origami, what do you do for living ?

Do you work with costs ?

[Origami]

Origami, what do you do for living ?

Do you work with costs ?

 

Engineering. I lead a business area in my unit nowadays, but have run programs and led a functional engineering department as well. Writing and costing proposals, running programs, and those sorts of things give many of us here the experience with costing.

[mogurnda]

If you want to shave electrical costs, use a VorTech MP40 instead of a closed loop/OM. 28 watts at full flow (less with oscillating flow), vs 100-150 watts. Less clutter, and I like the water flow better with the mP40 as well. Downside is the initial outlay, but you can make some of it back selling the Dart/OM.

[Origami]

Here's a guideline: When saving power, at the 11.5c per kWHr here in Virginia, 1 Watt of power savings (operated 24 hrs per day, 365 days per year) translates to about $1 per year in savings. It'll be a bit higher in MD. Not only will saving power save you money, it'll make your system "greener."

[sportzfish]

Engineering. I lead a business area in my unit nowadays, but have run programs and led a functional engineering department as well. Writing and costing proposals, running programs, and those sorts of things give many of us here the experience with costing.

 

By the extent of your posts, I thought you were a chemist....

[Origami]

By the extent of your posts, I thought you were a chemist....

 

We're a bit OT, but chemistry was a subject that I enjoyed very much way back in the past. There's a history there....

[steveoutlaw]

If you want to shave electrical costs, use a VorTech MP40 instead of a closed loop/OM. 28 watts at full flow (less with oscillating flow), vs 100-150 watts. Less clutter, and I like the water flow better with the mP40 as well. Downside is the initial outlay, but you can make some of it back selling the Dart/OM.

 

 

I'm not sure if a single MP40 probably won't be enough if you are going to keep SPS. I beleve that the 92g is 4' across at it's widest. Jamesbuf, chime in here.......weren't you running 2 MP40s on your corner? Also, if I remember correctly, the flow from the Dart was scaled back to about 2/3 power, which makes the dart run more efficiently. I think the only way you will be able to run it full force is if you go bare bottom.

[DaveS]

I thought about going Vortechs instead of a Dart/OM closed loop for my rebuild. In the end I went the Dart/OM route. The primary advantage with the Vortech is the battery backup. Aside from that, you are then maybe talking about some power savings but as Steve mentioned, if you need two and compare that to a scaled back Dart, you are probably close. The main disadvantages with the Vortech (IMHO) over a Dart/OM are upfront cost and inability to direct the output flow for direction. Maybe I'm wrong here and I'm open to hearing from others.

 

If you tank was bigger and cost were not an issue, I'd consider doing a Dart/OM CL and add in 1 Vortech. Use the CL as your primary water movement but have the Vortech for the battery backup benefits. Just an idea.

[mogurnda]

I'm not sure if a single MP40 probably won't be enough if you are going to keep SPS. I beleve that the 92g is 4' across at it's widest. Jamesbuf, chime in here.......weren't you running 2 MP40s on your corner? Also, if I remember correctly, the flow from the Dart was scaled back to about 2/3 power, which makes the dart run more efficiently. I think the only way you will be able to run it full force is if you go bare bottom.

I'm using one on a standard 90. At full output it would cause a major storm, so it's running at less than full. The SPS are quite happy, even at the opposite end. the flow is broad enough that directing it is not as much of an issue. JME.

[Origami]

An MP40 can move 1000-3200 gph. As mogurnda says, the flow is very broad. One can easily cut across a 4-foot tank. You can even set it in pulse mode and set up waves in your tank if desired (though this can be stressful on the tank seams!). By comparison, a Dart can move 3600 gph but doesn't have the ability, without external devices, for random or timed flow profiles.

 

You can also vary placement rather easily with an MP40, putting it nearly any place on any wall. You don't have that option with a normal closed loop that comes through the back wall of a tank.

[DaveS]

An MP40 can move 1000-3200 gph. As mogurnda says, the flow is very broad. One can easily cut across a 4-foot tank. You can even set it in pulse mode and set up waves in your tank if desired (though this can be stressful on the tank seams!). By comparison, a Dart can move 3600 gph but doesn't have the ability, without external devices, for random or timed flow profiles.

 

You can also vary placement rather easily with an MP40, putting it nearly any place on any wall. You don't have that option with a normal closed loop that comes through the back wall of a tank.

 

Man, you guys aren't making me feel any better about drilling all those holes in my tank and all the time I've spent sniffing PVC glue!

[mogurnda]

Man, you guys aren't making me feel any better about drilling all those holes in my tank and all the time I've spent sniffing PVC glue!

When done in a closed room, PVC fumes can be their own reward

[Origami]

Man, you guys aren't making me feel any better about drilling all those holes in my tank and all the time I've spent sniffing PVC glue!

 

LOL. One thing about a closed loop is that you can separate the intake from the return, setting up some relatively strong flow patterns. By design, these are coupled in a Vortech. For this reason, you can't set a Vortech up too close to a fine grained sand bed as it can draw it right up from even a foot away if you turn it up too high. Vortechs are pretty cool though.

[steveoutlaw]

Don't get me wrong, I love my vortech. However, given a choice I would much rather have a closed loop. I tried to set up the closed loop on that tank so that there was very little of the intakes or returns showing. I also like how you can turn the flow to pretty much any direction you want. I also like the fact that you can keep a spare pump around so that if anything goes wrong, you can just swap out pumps. It's a little expensive to do that with a Vortech.

 

Downside, you certainly don't get the wide flow that you do with a vortech.

[discretekarma]

I thought the pump on the Deltech was something that had to do with a Bee. Maybe a Bee or Bumble Bee or maybe I'm just crazy. That's what I thought but I'll know for sure when I go over there. Whatever is on there is what I'm keeping on there. At least for now. That's what the wife agreed on. My dad told me today that he's ok with giving me the whole setup. I'm pretty excited. I'm not sure what' still alive other than algae in it but I know that he has all the equipment to get me started. I hope there's at least a fish or something. I'm really going to need some help moving it but I'll start a new thread in the next few days for that. Do many members look in this non-member section still? Can't remember. This guest membership is all I can afford $0 so it'll have to do.

 

Anyways, thanks for all the info. I'm really excited to be back.

Edited December 9, 2009 by discretekarma

[Origami]

I thought the pump on the Deltech was something that had to do with a Bee. Maybe a Bee or Bumble Bee or maybe I'm just crazy. That's what I thought but I'll know for sure when I go over there. Whatever is on there is what I'm keeping on there. At least for now. That's what the wife agreed on. My dad told me today that he's ok with giving me the whole setup. I'm pretty excited. I'm not sure what' still alive other than algae in it but I know that he has all the equipment to get me started. I hope there's at least a fish or something. I'm really going to need some help moving it but I'll start a new thread in the next few days for that. Do many members look in this non-member section still? Can't remember. This guest membership is all I can afford $0 so it'll have to do.

 

Anyways, thanks for all the info. I'm really excited to be back.

 

Sounds like you're talking about an aquabee pump....

 

Good luck with the new setup. I'm sure that once you're back in the saddle, others will help you get started again. Doug's (dbartco) got a bunch of clowns (false percs) that he's bred.

 

I think a lot of members just hit "View New Posts" and so they'll come across this forum just as easily as any other.

 

Welcome back! Hope to see you on the membership rolls again sometime soon!