skimmer vs. refugium

[zygote2k]

This line of thought came up in another topic and I didn't want to hijack it.

In response to gatortaile-

 

I believe a skimmer is not an efficient way of creating a dynamic reef environment. With a properly sized and stocked refugium, the planktonic needs of a coral reef can be met. Protein skimmers have their place in environments where a refugium isn't feasible or planktonic requirements are low. Protein skimmers came with the wet/dry systems of the 80's as a way of stripping organic proteins from the water. They are not the answer to proper protein removal in a reef aquarium.

 

Has anyone read and applied the principles from Drs. Adey and Loveland from the book "Dynamic Aquaria"? This is one of the primary sources of much of my algal filtration. I also used an algae scrubber with a dump bucket back in the early 90's with no protein skimmer. I had one of the nicest reef tanks in any of the local pet stores- the result of using natural filtration.

I belive that many of the refugiums that people use today are drastically undersized and in-efficient for the size of reef that they are on. I used to think that a 'fuge should be 10% of the main display would be sufficient, but now I'm leaning towards a minimum of 25%. This factor could be a deciding factor of whether to use a simmer instead. There are so many types of cryptic creatures and macroalgaes available now-why not use them?

 

If you want to keep a planktonic food web in your reef, you should use a 'fuge. The corals grow quicker, micro-life flourishes, and your fish get to eat their favorite natural foods. Natural nitrate reduction- I'm rambling now.

[Smoothtriqueter]

I have read so many of your post pushing for no need for skimmers, and natural filtration being the way to go. I have to say that while I was just using a skimmer and not growing any macro that it was not sufficient. Now that I have a fuge up and running I have seen my nitrates go from 20-40ppm to 0 now. I cant even keep xenia alive in my display. I have wondered if I can take mine off but still have to empty it weekly so haven't tried yet. I also don't believe it is big enough as I have a 15g sump and a 65g display! It is definitely something to consider in the future!

[Coral Hind]

Yes, tanks can run without skimmers. However, unless you had an extremely large refugium you are still not going to be able to keep a large bioload without your water quality being negatively affected. They are two items that should be used together to benefit the tank as a whole.

 

The best thing about a skimmer is that it removes the pollutants before they can become an issue. It doesn

[Highland Reefer]

Do you use carbon filtration in your system? I would think the toxins produced by corals would be a possible concern.

[jason the filter freak]

For most of us space is at a huge premium and we don't have space for a fuge large enough to make a good alternative to skimmers.

[Gatortailale]

Thanks zygo for taking time to give a little details of your opinions on the benefits of a refugium. All helpful!

 

 

Yup, its from Deltec, but here is a link to some information that Marvin, who runs Atlantis reef shop down in Richmond, and the Deltec USA service rep. posted on the D-D website. Some photos of Deltec factory and links to how a skimmer works.

 

Hope its helpful to all those that want to learn more about how a skimmer works - at least from Deltec's point of view.

 

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/?q=node/470

 

 

http://www.theaquariumsolution.com/how-deltec-skimmers-work

The volume of water in our saltwater aquariums compared with the enormity of the sea requires us to remove protein mechanically as we can not rely on dilution.

- Deltec have designed a unique system to do so.

 

Protein Skimmers are a general name within the marine hobby for pieces of equipment that are designed to remove waste materials and proteins from the water column by a process called foam fractionation.

 

General: In simple terms a skimmer works by introducing high levels of air bubbles through a body of water containing waste materials. The waste and proteins are attracted to the air water interface and flow upwards with the surface where they can be collected. The larger the volume of air and the smaller the bubbles then the more surface area that is available to attract the proteins and the more efficient the skimmer.

 

Deltec Philosophy: There are 2 philosophies regarding the control of waste in a marine aquarium.

 

One is to is to have an average performing skimmer to take out some of the protein but also have a large amount of biological filtration to deal with the resulting breakdown from the remainder. This type of system will normally lead to a trend for rising nitrate levels and clean-ish rather than truly clean water.

 

The second way and the preferred Deltec method is to install a highly efficient skimmer that removes the majority of waste before it breaks down thus requiring less biological filtration and resulting in a lower level of nitrate that is much easier to cope with by the reducing bacteria in the system.

 

Deltec Protein Skimmers, renowned throughout the world for extreme performance use a unique, highly developed and patented pin wheel system which produces a water air mix unequalled by others.

As the water and air enter the skimmer pump they pass through the Deltec pinwheel. This is designed to fit within the pump housing so that very little water and air passes by it without being totally smashed up and mixed together.

 

People try to copy the Deltec pinwheel system but do not really understand the details that make them perform like they do.

 

 

 

It has taken 20 years of development to perfect the Deltec range of Protein Skimmers.

[ctenophore]

I don't think a skimmerless tank has any more live plankton in the water column than one with a skimmer. I also don't think the pumps kill as much plankton as people think. For example, many people see baby pocillopora colonies starting in various places due to sexual reproduction of their big colonies. I have babies in places that imply that the planulae traveled through a pump. I also have just as many visible pods, mysis, etc per unit volume in my big system with a giant hammerhead needlewheel skimmer as in my skimmerless 29 gal. I think the biggest killers of plankton in a reef are corals. Too much coral/rock surface area in far too little water. You would probably need a refugium at least an order of magnitude larger (maybe 2) than the display to maintain a true pelagic plankton population.

 

Re: Adey, his idea really didn't work out at the last smithsonian reef display. It was a big mess from the accounts I've seen. He's now trying to scale his idea up into large scale water treatment (where ATS technology belongs, IMO). I used the original ATS sold by Inland Aquatics back in the mid 90s, until Adey got into a patent dispute with the manufacturers. It worked fairly well, but was a maintenance nightmare.

[treesprite]

If the ratio of natural filtration to the water volumn is very high, you won't need a skimmer. When my 16 was a nano not a fuge, it had zero nitrate with no skimmer operating. It had a 5" DSB in it and there was a 5" sectioned off end of the tank packed with super-fast growing caulerpa. If only I could achieve nice water in these other tanks....

[zygote2k]

Yes, tanks can run without skimmers. However, unless you had an extremely large refugium you are still not going to be able to keep a large bioload without your water quality being negatively affected. They are two items that should be used together to benefit the tank as a whole.

 

The best thing about a skimmer is that it removes the pollutants before they can become an issue. It doesn

[davelin315]

How old is your current system? I think that, based upon my own experiences, you will run into problems with SPS when you have gone at it for awhile. Nutrient buildup is bound to happen, regardless of your refugium size, if you keep a well stocked reef. Stir up your sandbed if you need evidence of this. We don't have properly balanced tanks, in my opinion, to create a true natural reef, we simply don't have the space and abilities to keep all of the creatures in our closed system that take part in cleaning a real reef. Also, using a protein skimmer gives more flexibility on water changes. In essence, if you change enough water, you are doing the same thing that a protein skimmer does - removing excess nutrients that have built up in the water column. Also, with every algae scrubber I have ever seen in use I have noted the yellow water due to the algae itself. I'd be interested in seeing some pictures of your tank from before (if you've got any still since this was an older tank) and learn how you combatted the problem of yellow water.

 

By the way, I have run both skimmerless tanks and tanks with skimmers. What I have found to be true is that skimmers allow for a greater margin of error, which is very valuable in our closed systems. They can help to defuse problems before they become too great to be handled whereas a refugium will not necessarily do that. Take, for example, a tank that has a die off of something. A skimmer will work overtime to try and keep the water clean and help to remove some of the resulting toxins from your tank when used with chemical filtration. A refugium, on the other hand, will not do this nearly as quickly and may in fact also crash, causing the problem to multiply instead of decrease.

 

My own personal preference is to use a combination of the two. I use macroalgae in my refugium (which is not really a refugium because I have fish and other critters ferreted away in there) and I also use a skimmer, chemical filtration, a UV clarifier (I wouldn't classify mine as being sufficient to be a sterilizer), use a kalk stirrer and a calcium reactor, and do water changes. Proper husbandry, as far as I'm concerned, involves using as many tools as you can to maintain a healthy environment.

[treesprite]

Water changes are mechanical filtration, not natural filtration.

[zygote2k]

In the old algae scrubber system, there was indeed a yellowing of the water. Regular addition of carbon would make it crystal clear however.

My current system is 6 months old and I have a small fish load. In the fuge, I also have a Mandarin that will only eat copepods. I have Xenia and some other misc. coral in there too. The last time I did water tests, they were as follows:

PH 8.09

Alk 3.01 meq/l

Calcium 390

Nitrate 0

Sal. 1.027

Temp 75.

 

I have a predominantly softie tank with a few sps frags. I have 5 fish and some snails and hermits for maintenance. There is only 1 herbivore in the tank, but he hardly makes a dent. I have no Caulerpa or any type of nuisance algae other than Valonia. Been thinking about getting a Mithrax crab to eat that. I use RO/DI water and do 10% water changes 3 times a month. I feed the fish and corals a variety of foods, sometimes heavy for a few days in a row. I never have hair algae outbreaks. I also have about 15 red mangroves that grow near the drain, but I don't think they contribute much as far as nutrient removal. I employ a 4-5" DSB in the sump for NNR. I even broke the "rule" about BTA's- I got a RBTA from Chip after the tank had only been up for 3 months and it is flourishing. I have a huge population of worms, pods, dusters, and many other nameless critters. The coralline algae is rapidly spreading and Montipora does well too.

I don't think that all this would be possible if I relied upon a skimmer for filtration. Even with a skimmer, you have to do regular water changes to remove dissolved organics and replenish trace elements.

[treesprite]

It only matters that balance is achieved and maintained well enough that the animals in our care are healthy, regardless of how we do it. There are so many different factors involved that there's no one way to say what is better, or what combination of methods is better.

[zygote2k]

It only matters that balance is achieved and maintained well enough that the animals in our care are healthy, regardless of how we do it. There are so many different factors involved that there's no one way to say what is better, or what combination of methods is better.

 

I agree that a dynamic equilibrium is what we are all trying to achieve. But to say that all methods are the same or which is better is gross misundertanding.

I've been involved in this hobby/profession for nearly 20 years and have set up and maintained well over 100 different tanks. Remember when everyone thought that wet/dry filters were the answer? How about Bio-Wheels, Canister filters, Fluidized beds, Tap-water conditioners, Stress-coat, Coppersafe.

If you understand water chemistry and the nitrogen cycle, you realize that there are definite ways to go and definite things to avoid.

[treesprite]

I agree that a dynamic equilibrium is what we are all trying to achieve. But to say that all methods are the same or which is better is gross misundertanding.

I've been involved in this hobby/profession for nearly 20 years and have set up and maintained well over 100 different tanks. Remember when everyone thought that wet/dry filters were the answer? How about Bio-Wheels, Canister filters, Fluidized beds, Tap-water conditioners, Stress-coat, Coppersafe.

If you understand water chemistry and the nitrogen cycle, you realize that there are definite ways to go and definite things to avoid.

I'm not saying that all methods are the same, I 'm saying that as long as teh results are the same (good I mean) then it doesn't matter what method a person uses if that's what works for that system. It's just preference.

[lanman]

How big a refugium do you envision that I would need with my 240-gallon tank (total right now about 300 gallons)?? I have a 20-gallon refugium growing macro like crazy. Hasn't made a dent in my nitrate problem. Well - maybe a dent, but not anything I can measure. I just added a small Remote DSB; give that a couple of weeks. My skimmer really doesn't pull all that much crap out of the water. It's almost like my tank manufactures the nitrates by itself. Water is clear, but corals only do well if I do 2 20/30-gallon water changes a week.

 

On the other hand - my 33-gallon frag system has a HOB skimmer that rarely works - to the point I have never had to empty the collection cup. It does get a wee bit of 'stuff' in it once in a while - but it evaporates almost as fast. I clean it once in a while, just to ensure it doesn't stink. The tank has a 1" decorative sand bed, and maybe 15-20 pounds of live rock in it. It has a 20-gallon refugium. I credit the refugium on this system with taking care of the water. Regular water changes of 5 gallons once a week ensure good coral growth. The only fish in there is a small 6-line wrasse. I run a small carbon cannister on this system, as well. I add 2-part to it every evening. No kalk reactor, no auto-topoff, basically no skimmer. I have never done water measurements in the system, other than checking the nitrates several months ago when I was trying various nitrate test kits to see if that was my problem with the 240. It is my 'best' system, as far as coral growth, color and general cleanliness.

 

My 58-gallon system has no refugium. Right now it is running a skimmer designed for up to 700 gallons. Normally it runs a skimmer designed for up to about 120. Light bio-load - 4 modest sized fish. Change 5 gallons a week. This tank has a lot of rock, and about 4" of sand.

 

Dishonorable mention - my 'rock-cooking' system. 45-gallon tank, with a SEIO powerhead moving water around, and a CYCLONE skimmer - which doesn't do much. A few NO lights over it that I turn on and off pretty randomly. After 11 months, I did my first water change yesterday... in a sense. Because it has no overflow, no sump, no filtration of any sort - it had a lot of 'junk' on the top of the water, which I skimmed off yesterday - which took about 5 gallons of water out of the system. I replaced that water with water from my 240 removed during a water change. Ghastly, yes? However - I have some brown polyps, and a ricordia fiji, and some briareum, and even a frag of Almon's most famous coral living in there. Thriving - hardly - but living and growing. They just happened to be stuck to some rock that I put in there. Coralline growth is also excellent - I have nice 'spare' rocks. There are a couple of hermit crabs, a couple of snails, and at least one peppermint shrimp as well. I measure the salinity every few months, and once had to adjust it by taking some saltwater out, and adding some fresh water. That's the total maintenance.

 

Oddly enough - all of my systems (never measure the rock-cooker) run about the same - 20-30 ppm nitrates. All grow coral well with regular water changes, though the 240 needs them more frequently.

 

Based on my current experience - it appears that everything works, and nothing works. It's a strange hobby...

 

bob

Edited November 23, 2008 by lanman

[davelin315]

Everything has a use, it's how you employ them. Your system is very new still, mine didn't experience any hair algae until around 7 months at which time I had my cyano and diatom bloom. It's almost at a year now that it's been set up and I don't consider it an established tank by any means, despite the fact that the rock has been in the overall system for over 2 years.

 

I'm not sure I follow your rationale on it not being possible relying on a skimmer, though. I also have years of experience as well and although I don't have service tanks, I have maintained multiple tanks in all different kinds of situations. My old 125 that I had before moving from Chicago had zero nitrates as well due to xenia, not a refugium, but that's an unstable environment and method of nutrient export to rely on - xenia can crash at any time. They are very good at eating up nitrates, but they are also very good at crashing very quickly which can spew a whole lot of gunk into your system. In my experience a thriving population of xenia is indicative of a nitrate problem. The system is producing nitrates at a good clip and the xenia are eating it up, masking the fact that there is no other effective method for nitrate and nutrient export. This to me is not balanced. I may not have had the same experience as others, but I have had a lot of experience with xenia, and since I have improved my techniques and had a cleaner system, xenia has stopped being successful in my tanks.

 

My 2 cents.

[steveoutlaw]

But to say that all methods are the same or which is better is gross misundertanding.

 

But isn't that exactly what you are saying? That a refugium is better than a skimmer?

 

I think it's great to use a refugium.....and if you have success using a refugium and nothing else, that's great. But there are a lot of people out there that have been in the hobby as long as or longer than you that use, and have great success with, skimmers. There are also a lot of newbies on the board that don't have the experience, time or space to implement a proper refugium......so don't go telling them that a skimmer isn't necessary. Give them advice on how to set up a fuge if that's the way they want to go, but telling them a skimmer isn't necessary is just a disaster waiting to happen for those who don't understand all aspects of the hobby.

 

My $.02

Edited November 23, 2008 by steveoutlaw

[zygote2k]

Why can't someone that's inexperienced that wants to start a reef tank set up a system that's similar to mine, just follow simple instructions on how to set up and use a refugium be successful? If you have the room and want to have an easy cost effective answer to a great reef environment, go natural.

 

Has anyone ever seen the softcoral tank at Marine Scene that's near the bagging station? It's a 40 breeder with lots of Anthelia and other soft corals with a great light system and no skimmer? This system ran on a Jaubert plenum style of natural nitrate reduction. That tank is so well balanced and looks better than 90% of the tanks I've seen in the greater metro area that use skimmers. I believe any noob that comes along and wants to set up a new tank, can recreate that one just as easily.

 

The other reason why people are hesitant to believe this, is because the reef hobby is commercially driven. We need the bells and whistles to make it work, after all if it was that easy, why would they make protein skimmers and all the other gadgets and devices that are out there? Anyone remember the guy that said the world was round and was subsequently killed because everyone else said it was flat?

[steveoutlaw]

Nobody is saying that a noob or anybody else CAN'T do that. However, all I've heard you talking about here are softie tanks. A lot of people out there have SPS dominated tanks with a huge bio-load. I have 17 SPS colonies, not frags, colonies, along with LPS colonies and fish......that's a good sized bioload. I would need a refugium the size of my spare bedroom to handle that. All I'm saying is to present the way you do things, but don't tell them that the other ways are wrong. The fact is, there is more than one way of doing things and you should leave it up to the individual to decide which way they want to go.

[zygote2k]

Nobody is saying that a noob or anybody else CAN'T do that. However, all I've heard you talking about here are softie tanks. A lot of people out there have SPS dominated tanks with a huge bio-load. I have 17 SPS colonies, not frags, colonies, along with LPS colonies and fish......that's a good sized bioload. I would need a refugium the size of my spare bedroom to handle that. All I'm saying is to present the way you do things, but don't tell them that the other ways are wrong. The fact is, there is more than one way of doing things and you should leave it up to the individual to decide which way they want to go.

Why don't you try to use a 'fuge on your sps sytem? You could probably get by with a 30 gallon 'fuge. I'm sure if it is well stocked, it can handle whatever type of bioload or biotope that you can throw at it.

[ctenophore]

When you try to get really good growth and color out of some exotic sps and have lots of fish, you will see why a skimmer and all those gadgets become very useful if not completely necessary. A tank full of anthelia and other softies will look great with no skimmer. That stuff will grow in drainage ditches given some salt and the right temperature

[Coral Hind]

Why don't you try to use a 'fuge on your sps sytem? You could probably get by with a 30 gallon 'fuge. I'm sure if it is well stocked, it can handle whatever type of bioload or biotope that you can throw at it.

 

I think since you are so certain that the refugium is all you need, you should trade out your softies which do not require pristine water and spend a few grand on SPS. Then let us know how it runs long term without a skimmer. That sounds like a great experiment for you to prove your case.

[lhcorals]

Nobody is saying that a noob or anybody else CAN'T do that. However, all I've heard you talking about here are softie tanks. A lot of people out there have SPS dominated tanks with a huge bio-load. I have 17 SPS colonies, not frags, colonies, along with LPS colonies and fish......that's a good sized bioload. I would need a refugium the size of my spare bedroom to handle that. All I'm saying is to present the way you do things, but don't tell them that the other ways are wrong. The fact is, there is more than one way of doing things and you should leave it up to the individual to decide which way they want to go.

 

 

I agree with you Steve. Let the people know what you are doing, but dont tell them everything else is wrong. I know i would not just depend on my fuge. I think it helps in multiple ways, but i still think a skimmer is needed with heavy bio-load tanks.

[gastone]

There is more than one way to skin a cat (though any way you do it is fine by me). Whenever I speak to someone brand new in the hobby I tell them to read, read, read. And the book that I always recommend first is Bob Fenner's "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist". It's probably a bit dated by now, but the point that he tries to get across is that there are numerous methods to maintain a successful reef aquarium. Use what works for you. When I first started I had a 42 hex with a 30 gallon gravity fed fuge. I kept the typical softie/beginner corals. (My nitrates were 0) I moved, got a remora pro HOB skimmer and tossed it on the same system. I mostly kept LPS/zoanthids and I picked up a RBTA. (My nitrates were 0) Murphy swung by one weekend while I was away. I sprung a leak, lost everything. Used the opportunity to have the same 42 hex drilled. I added a 100g rubbermaid stock tank (adding 60g +/- to the water volume), used it as a refugium, added a ER skimmer that I mesh modded, turned the 30 into a zoanthind tank and then a prop tank. (My nitrates were 0 the last time I tested... I'm going to say in 2005) Now my 42 hex is sitting on my garage floor of my new house. There is no skimmer, no refugium and I have a feeling that if I measure my nitrates they'd be 0. I'm planning an upgrade, and I think I'm going to go BB (or a RSSB (I copyrighted that - real shallow sand bed)) with a high end skimmer and no refugium. Why? Why not? I just want to try something different. I know the limitations of my past systems and what I could successfully keep (that means long term, not 2 years). I also have an idea that I'll be able to keep more pretty sticks this way.

 

Skin away says I.

 

G.