overflow not keeping up with return

[treesprite]

after all the messing with the electric, I go to turn everything back on and for some reason the overflow box isn't keeping up with the return anymore - what the heck??? I thought maybe it was because I had moved the return higher so there would be less loss, so I moved it back where it started - still too much for the overflow, yet the overflow seems to be working fine. Now, duh maybe I can dial the pump down... I forgot about that thing - it's in some junk under the stand. Can't try it now - I just realized that its 117 and I was supposed to be at work at 1 but my tank caused me to lose track of time... been working on that stupid thing since 11pm last night straight through to now.

[Highland Reefer]

Sounds like ya need to take a brake. Come back at it when fresher. If you have to leave your system off for a short time while at work, I think that would be better.

[treesprite]

I ended up putting a few powerheads in the tank before I left and left it at that. Now I'm at work until 10:30.

 

I don't get it though - I didn't have this problem before. I have a CPR overflow that has two 1" bulkheads, with a GenX 6000 return (I think its like 1587gph).

[lanman]

I ended up putting a few powerheads in the tank before I left and left it at that. Now I'm at work until 10:30.

 

I don't get it though - I didn't have this problem before. I have a CPR overflow that has two 1" bulkheads, with a GenX 6000 return (I think its like 1587gph).

 

I run about 1800gph - and it almost fills up two 1.5" overflow tubes. I'd say you're running on the ragged edge.

 

bob

[Larry Grenier]

Pu a Y on the return with one branch going to the tank and the other going thru a ball valve and then returning to the sump or feeding something else like maybe a frag tank or fuge. hat way you can cut-down on the return flow without dialing-down the pump and wasting it's capacity. Even if you don't do the frag or fuge, returning to the sump will give the skimmer more "skim-time" fo each measure of water. Cheap & easy.

[treesprite]

I run about 1800gph - and it almost fills up two 1.5" overflow tubes. I'd say you're running on the ragged edge.

 

bob

 

Not sure what you mean. The seriousness of the problem is that the tank starts to flood in like half a minute the water is up to the edge. Also, due you mean U-tubes? This doesn't have U tubes.

 

I really don't want to lose the flow though, because I'm trying to put it through a loop and it is way too week - at least it was till today!

 

Do new pumps have a "breaking in" period? If so, then maybe the problem is that I just went past it.

 

My adventure started out last night with trying to use a second same kind of overflow bos but just 1 bh, to use to have a separate refugium - that was a disaster and I caused the flood that got water on that now-fried powerstrip. I thought maybe that happened because the little overflow to a 10g was lower than the big overflow, so I raised it and tried again... and flooded again (not much this time). I had taken apart the loop and re-routed it around the 2 overflow boxes - worked a little bit better than before, because less turns.

 

It was at this point that I ran into the electrical problem - never did figure out was it was because nothing is causing a problem (will take gfi from work to home tonight and check with that one).

 

then because I gave up on trying to use the second box, I took the loop apart again and started over. I never got a chance to pay attention to how strong the flow was this time because as soon as I looked away, the water was at the rim of the tank. Messed with that for a while and gave up.

 

Looked at the clock and it was like 1pm - I was supposed to be at work at 1 and lost track of time - fortunately I'm the only one usually around on Sundays except an occasional counselor in between client residences and whatever.

[YBeNormal]

Check for snails in your drain pipes.

[dschflier]

i was going to say the same thing as Ybnormal. did you check your pipes to see if anything is stuck in them? Are they bent differently?

[treesprite]

I don't think there's anything in there - I didn't notice that the water was any slower, but then I was paying more attention to the water level than anything else, so I'll look when I'm home. They're not bent. I may end up putting both overflow boxes - this one and the small one - to see if that helps any.

[lanman]

Not sure what you mean. The seriousness of the problem is that the tank starts to flood in like half a minute the water is up to the edge. Also, due you mean U-tubes? This doesn't have U tubes.

 

I really don't want to lose the flow though, because I'm trying to put it through a loop and it is way too week - at least it was till today!

 

Do new pumps have a "breaking in" period? If so, then maybe the problem is that I just went past it.

 

My adventure started out last night with trying to use a second same kind of overflow bos but just 1 bh, to use to have a separate refugium - that was a disaster and I caused the flood that got water on that now-fried powerstrip. I thought maybe that happened because the little overflow to a 10g was lower than the big overflow, so I raised it and tried again... and flooded again (not much this time). I had taken apart the loop and re-routed it around the 2 overflow boxes - worked a little bit better than before, because less turns.

 

It was at this point that I ran into the electrical problem - never did figure out was it was because nothing is causing a problem (will take gfi from work to home tonight and check with that one).

 

then because I gave up on trying to use the second box, I took the loop apart again and started over. I never got a chance to pay attention to how strong the flow was this time because as soon as I looked away, the water was at the rim of the tank. Messed with that for a while and gave up.

 

Looked at the clock and it was like 1pm - I was supposed to be at work at 1 and lost track of time - fortunately I'm the only one usually around on Sundays except an occasional counselor in between client residences and whatever.

 

I'm just saying that you're running nearly 1600gph through two 1" tubes - I'm running 1800gph through two 1.5" tubes. My two overflow tubes run horizontally out of the back of the tank - so I can see how full they are getting - and It runs with only about 1/2" of 'empty pipe' above the water. So I'm thinking your 1600gph is about all two 1" returns can handle. When you're at the very edge of capacity - almost any little thing could cause it to overflow... like a snail, or an extra bend, or maybe an air bubble... anything at all.

 

bob

[treesprite]

I'm just saying that you're running nearly 1600gph through two 1" tubes - I'm running 1800gph through two 1.5" tubes. My two overflow tubes run horizontally out of the back of the tank - so I can see how full they are getting - and It runs with only about 1/2" of 'empty pipe' above the water. So I'm thinking your 1600gph is about all two 1" returns can handle. When you're at the very edge of capacity - almost any little thing could cause it to overflow... like a snail, or an extra bend, or maybe an air bubble... anything at all.

 

bob

 

The overflow box has been about 1/3rd to 1/2 full of water while operating up until now, same return pump. I think after I clean the liter boxes I'll try hooking up the second overflow box and use them both - blew up my plans for separate sump/fuge now unless I get something drilled.

[treesprite]

that problem is solved. The powerhead was having an issue - working but I think i had it turned a little so it wasn't sucking air through that little hole. So now I'm using a different powerhead and everything is fine. I need to get an aqualifter to prevent from having to deal with this I guess.

[CHUBAKAH]

Rather than start a new thread, if you don't mind I would also like to get some advice on a similar problem I am having. Before I begin, I think this is the first post I have made here, as I have just been reading and learning from others. I've kept fish for more than thirty years, but this is my first venture over to the Reef side. Please excuse my ignorance on this subject.

 

From what I have read here, and the advice I was given by Fin and Feathers, I decided to go with a closed loop system. I have a 100gal acrylic Tru Vu aquarium which I drilled in the front bottom with 4 1" bulkheads. To those I am using a pump which if I remember correctly is 1250GPH. AT the backside near the top I drilled two more holes with 1" bulkheads, and am gravity feeding back in to the sump.

 

I barley have the ball valve open and my tank over fills pretty dramatically if I even go half way on the valve.

 

I just ordered two more bulkheads to add in two more lines which I plan to run independently of the other ones.

 

I'm curious if there is some type of formula as to what is needed?

 

Any other advice for the return is much appreciated.

 

Chewy

[Rascal]

From what I have read here, and the advice I was given by Fin and Feathers, I decided to go with a closed loop system. I have a 100gal acrylic Tru Vu aquarium which I drilled in the front bottom with 4 1" bulkheads. To those I am using a pump which if I remember correctly is 1250GPH. AT the backside near the top I drilled two more holes with 1" bulkheads, and am gravity feeding back in to the sump.

 

I barley have the ball valve open and my tank over fills pretty dramatically if I even go half way on the valve.

 

I just ordered two more bulkheads to add in two more lines which I plan to run independently of the other ones.

 

I'm curious if there is some type of formula as to what is needed?

 

Any other advice for the return is much appreciated.

 

Chewy

 

If I understand it correctly, you have a 1250 gph pump sitting in the sump which feeds 4 x 1" bulkheads at the front bottom of the tank (the returns). Then you have 2 x 1" bulkheads at the top which are connected to tubing/piping which empties into your sump (the drains). If so, this is not a closed loop. A closed loop would have the drains connected directly to the intake of the pump, which usually sits outside of the sump.

A closed loop system has no effect on the water level in your tank whether it is off, on, or anywhere in between, no matter how powerful the pump is. This is because all of the water remains in the loop no matter what.

 

Before I get to your question, I see another potentially huge problem. How do you keep all of the water in your tank from draining through those 4 bulkheads when your return pump is off? A check valve?

 

A 1" bulkhead should normally handle 600 gph of water (although this can be pushed by turning it into a syphon - doesn't sound applicable here). Since your 1250 gph pump is likely putting out considerably less than that due to head loss, in theory your system should not be overflowing unless the drain lines are restricted somehow. Are you sure you have 1" bulkheads, and not just 1" holes in the side of the tank? What are you using for tubing?

[treesprite]

If I understand it correctly, you have a 1250 gph pump sitting in the sump which feeds 4 x 1" bulkheads at the front bottom of the tank (the returns). Then you have 2 x 1" bulkheads at the top which are connected to tubing/piping which empties into your sump (the drains). If so, this is not a closed loop. A closed loop would have the drains connected directly to the intake of the pump, which usually sits outside of the sump.

A closed loop system has no effect on the water level in your tank whether it is off, on, or anywhere in between, no matter how powerful the pump is. This is because all of the water remains in the loop no matter what.

 

Before I get to your question, I see another potentially huge problem. How do you keep all of the water in your tank from draining through those 4 bulkheads when your return pump is off? A check valve?

 

A 1" bulkhead should normally handle 600 gph of water (although this can be pushed by turning it into a syphon - doesn't sound applicable here). Since your 1250 gph pump is likely putting out considerably less than that due to head loss, in theory your system should not be overflowing unless the drain lines are restricted somehow. Are you sure you have 1" bulkheads, and not just 1" holes in the side of the tank? What are you using for tubing?

 

I guess that makes mine just a loop and not a closed loop! I'll see if I can connect one of the overflow tubes directly to the pump. This might explain why I'm not getting as much out of the pump as I thought I would. Thanks for the valuable info!

[CHUBAKAH]

If I understand it correctly, you have a 1250 gph pump sitting in the sump which feeds 4 x 1" bulkheads at the front bottom of the tank (the returns). Then you have 2 x 1" bulkheads at the top which are connected to tubing/piping which empties into your sump (the drains). If so, this is not a closed loop. A closed loop would have the drains connected directly to the intake of the pump, which usually sits outside of the sump.

A closed loop system has no effect on the water level in your tank whether it is off, on, or anywhere in between, no matter how powerful the pump is. This is because all of the water remains in the loop no matter what.

 

Before I get to your question, I see another potentially huge problem. How do you keep all of the water in your tank from draining through those 4 bulkheads when your return pump is off? A check valve?

 

A 1" bulkhead should normally handle 600 gph of water (although this can be pushed by turning it into a syphon - doesn't sound applicable here). Since your 1250 gph pump is likely putting out considerably less than that due to head loss, in theory your system should not be overflowing unless the drain lines are restricted somehow. Are you sure you have 1" bulkheads, and not just 1" holes in the side of the tank? What are you using for tubing?

Well on my way home tonight I decided to stop by Fin and Feathers to explain what was going on to the guy who told me how to build it. He is telling me exactly what you have said here, and that I need two pumps to accomplish my needs. Seems he thought I was ONLY talking about the closed loop system, and was not addressing the sump at all.

 

I think I am on the right track with what I need to do, and it seems the only thing I am missing outside of a few new plumbing parts is a new pump to return the water back to the tank.

 

The current pump is going to be in a loop with four exhaust, and four return bulkhead fittings, all located near the bottom of the tank. The two drains I have near the top will still return to the sump, but I am needing to add in two other returns to return water from the sump.

 

To answer your question about tubing, I am using 1 inch schedule 40 PVC.

 

The other question is yes, I am using a check valve, which of course will move from the closed loop side to the sump side.

I'm guessing I should probably add in a second one, and just leave the one I have so no water [or sand] ever goes back to the pump. Is that right, or not needed?

 

So now my question is, what am I going to need in the way of a pump to return water from the sump to the tank, and how large should the lines be?

 

That I could use advice on. How many GPH should I need, and do you have a link for a suggested pump?

 

Now I'm really feeling like a tool, and the reason I waited 9 months to post.

 

Thanks in advance guys and gals!

 

Chewy

[treesprite]

It's still a loop and it does the same thing. The only difference is that instead of a tube connected to the pump intake, the whole sump is connected to the intake by way of submersion.

 

I need to figure out what to do with my overflow box because I tried connecting one of those tubes directly to the pump and was getting bursts only, because of the air in teh overflow box.... guess I need standpipes now.

[Origami]

I need to figure out what to do with my overflow box because I tried connecting one of those tubes directly to the pump and was getting bursts only, because of the air in teh overflow box.... guess I need standpipes now.

 

Forrest, I'm not sure I'm in sync with your question here, but I use an aqualifter on my overflow box (which is similar to yours, but a CPR clone) to pull the air that gathers at the top of the box (which, as you found can slow flow considerably). I set mine up so that the aqualifter pulls the air out of the fitting at the top of the box and dumps it into the drain-side of the box, just inside the wall there so there's no net water loss in the "tube" and no real risk of the tube draining when the tank water level drops (such as during water changes). It seems to work pretty well.

[Carl]

In case you need it, Reefcentral has a Drain/Overflow Size calculator...that recommends plumbing diameter for drains/overflows based on gph. It is towards the bottom of the home page on the left side.

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/

 

-Carl

[treesprite]

My aqualifter went out of commission so I need to gether another one... another two actually because I got the second overflow box from William. The only place that had one in stock was TFW and they wanted 25 bucks for it - absolutely outrageous - so I'm going to have to order them.

[Rascal]

The other question is yes, I am using a check valve, which of course will move from the closed loop side to the sump side.

I'm guessing I should probably add in a second one, and just leave the one I have so no water [or sand] ever goes back to the pump. Is that right, or not needed?

 

So now my question is, what am I going to need in the way of a pump to return water from the sump to the tank, and how large should the lines be?

 

That I could use advice on. How many GPH should I need, and do you have a link for a suggested pump?

 

Now I'm really feeling like a tool, and the reason I waited 9 months to post.

 

Thanks in advance guys and gals!

 

Chewy

 

I does sound like you are now on the right track - which is why you shouldn't have waited 9 months to post.

 

A couple more thoughts:

 

A check valve is not needed on the closed loop, because water will never move "backwards" in the system. What is needed are very good true unions and ball valves on each side of the CL (closed loop) pump. It should go like this: intake --> BV --> TU --> CL Pump --> TU --> BV -- > outlets to tank. Easiest way to do this is to get combination True Union Ball Valves. For this purpose. This will allow you to take the pump offline for service / replacement without having to drain all the water in your tank. I like to put another ball valve right after the bulkhead too, in case you ever decide to replumb things.

 

IMO a check valve is not a reliable way to prevent an overflow to your sump when your return pump is turned off. Better is this: make sure at least one of your return outlets is near the surface of the water in the tank. That way when the power to the return pump is cut off and the return plumbing starts to back - siphon, it will only draw a little bit of water back into the sump before it starts to suck in air - thus stopping the siphon. You can also do this by drilling a little hole in the tubing just below where the water level will be (called a siphon break), but holes can clog.

 

Another option instead of drilling more holes in the tank for your return (from sump) plumbing is just to route this over the back of the tank, switching to locline or something at the end.

 

As for the pump question, you first have to figure out how much total flow you want in your tank and then how much flow do you want through your sump / filtration. There is a wide range of what will work -- anything in the 500 - 1200 gph range -- depending on what you are trying to accomplish and how you have it set up. I personally favor slower flow through the sum (5-7 x tank turnover) just because there are less noise and bubble issues that way and you still get plenty of filtration. Opinions on this will differ.

[CHUBAKAH]

I does sound like you are now on the right track - which is why you shouldn't have waited 9 months to post.

Nine months ago is when I decided I was going to go reef, and knew just about nothing about it. Just about everything I know now has come from here and one other board from just searching for articles on certain things. All of it really does seem pretty simple in theory after you know it, but to someone, as I'm sure we can all relate to who has never done it, it all seems very overwhelming.

 

The one thing that does strike me as kind of weird, EVERYONE you talk to has a different way to do things, which adds to the confusion at times.

 

I appreciate your feedback Rascal!

 

Also a huge thanks to Treesprite for allowing me to invade his thread and get some answers along the same lines of his problem.

 

Regards,

Chewy

[treesprite]

Nine months ago is when I decided I was going to go reef, and knew just about nothing about it. Just about everything I know now has come from here and one other board from just searching for articles on certain things. All of it really does seem pretty simple in theory after you know it, but to someone, as I'm sure we can all relate to who has never done it, it all seems very overwhelming.

 

The one thing that does strike me as kind of weird, EVERYONE you talk to has a different way to do things, which adds to the confusion at times.

 

I appreciate your feedback Rascal!

 

Also a huge thanks to Treesprite for allowing me to invade his thread and get some answers along the same lines of his problem.

 

Regards,

Chewy

 

Hey, HERS not his!

 

I had my tank for about 11 years prior to starting reef and it was like with you, after Ll that time I started exploring the net doing research and then found WAMAS - I learned more in teh first month here than I learned in the first 11 years.

[CHUBAKAH]

Hey, HERS not his!

I apologizes.