zotzer October 30, 2007 October 30, 2007 (edited) My calcium test stinks! I am supposed to do drip drip drip (counting all along) until it turns blue, but it never really does. It turns *indigo*, so I make a note of the most dramatic change and keep drip drip dripping, but it never turns what I would call blue. By my calculations, my CA was somewhere between 400 and 500. Anyway, I took some water off to MS and asked them to do some tests (alk and ca, and double-check my salinity) Total tests (between mine and theirs) are: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 (no color at all...totally undetectable, which is cool) Calcium 568!!! Alk 3.2 meq/l pH 8.2 (midday...one hour ago) SG 1.0255 I use Reef Crystals salt, dose 10ml B-ionic two-part every other day, change 5 gallons of water per week, and have a 46G tank. How do I level out the alk and CA? Just dose part one until numbers read normal? Thanks for your help! Tracy Edited October 30, 2007 by zotzer
emissary October 30, 2007 October 30, 2007 Whatever you do, don't make any dramatic changes period. Second... question whether you really need to be changing anything if everything's healthy. Third, get a second (third?) opinion. Finally, if you feel confident your calcium is too high, *then* take gradual corrective measures.
zotzer October 30, 2007 Author October 30, 2007 Whatever you do, don't make any dramatic changes period. Second... question whether you really need to be changing anything if everything's healthy. Third, get a second (third?) opinion. Finally, if you feel confident your calcium is too high, *then* take gradual corrective measures. Thanks for chiming in. Only two things I'm not crazy about in the tank...a monti cap that looks "blah" but not dying. The color isn't as nice as when I bought it. I think it is more of a lighting issue, and plan to move it higher up in the tank. One set of zoas I have is being finicky, but a different type right next to them is growing gangbusters. Overall, things seem happy and growing, but I know that "by the book" the Ca seems really high. Alk is a little low, but nothing off the charts. Tracy
Rascal October 30, 2007 October 30, 2007 Here's a good "how to" on this subject, complete with graphs: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm If you read everything ever written by that author on the subject of reef chemistry, and understand even half of it, you will be an expert.
zotzer October 30, 2007 Author October 30, 2007 Thanks for that link! Looks like I am in zone 4, and that adding 2 tsp of baking soda should start correcting the problem. Can I just add this to a quart of top-off water and pour it in? I guess I wonder how the calcium got so high, and how to change my regimen so that it doesn't continue to happen. I've been doing things "by the book", but my readings aren't "by the book". Ahhh, go figure....this is reefing, right? LOL Tracy
FishWife October 30, 2007 October 30, 2007 Disclaimer: I've never done it. BUT, I was reading about dosing two-parts (alk and calc) last night, and it said to resist ALL URGES to dose separately. It said to always do them in ratio and tandem 'cause it would throw them out of balance if you didn't.
zotzer October 30, 2007 Author October 30, 2007 Disclaimer: I've never done it. BUT, I was reading about dosing two-parts (alk and calc) last night, and it said to resist ALL URGES to dose separately. It said to always do them in ratio and tandem 'cause it would throw them out of balance if you didn't. Yeah, I read the same thing. I've been super attentive to dosing them *together*. (albeit a half hour or more apart from each other). That's why I'm concerned about how the balance could have been thrown off to begin with. My Ca had been "low"...around 320....and alk normal when I started dosing. That was only about two or three weeks ago. tracy
lanman October 30, 2007 October 30, 2007 My calcium test stinks! I am supposed to do drip drip drip (counting all along) until it turns blue, but it never really does. It turns *indigo*, so I make a note of the most dramatic change and keep drip drip dripping, but it never turns what I would call blue. By my calculations, my CA was somewhere between 400 and 500. Anyway, I took some water off to MS and asked them to do some tests (alk and ca, and double-check my salinity) Total tests (between mine and theirs) are: Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 0 (no color at all...totally undetectable, which is cool) Calcium 568!!! Alk 3.2 meq/l pH 8.2 (midday...one hour ago) SG 1.0255 I use Reef Crystals salt, dose 10ml B-ionic two-part every other day, change 5 gallons of water per week, and have a 46G tank. How do I level out the alk and CA? Just dose part one until numbers read normal? Thanks for your help! Tracy From the description, you are using a Salifert CA test kit. I agree it can be hard to read sometimes. But with BRK also coming in at over 500; I'd guess you have somewhere around 500. If your pH is good, your Alk is good (close enough) - then I wouldn't get too excited about the CA. Yeah - it's higher than expected, but your tank is doing great. No wonder that slimer is growing so fast. Just study up, figure out what you might want to do, and do it s-l-o-w-l-y. bob
rrubberbandman October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 From the description, you are using a Salifert CA test kit. I agree it can be hard to read sometimes. But with BRK also coming in at over 500; I'd guess you have somewhere around 500. If your pH is good, your Alk is good (close enough) - then I wouldn't get too excited about the CA. Yeah - it's higher than expected, but your tank is doing great. No wonder that slimer is growing so fast. Just study up, figure out what you might want to do, and do it s-l-o-w-l-y. bob sounds alot like a aq.pharm test kit........
flowerseller October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 Tracy, I find that the biggest issue with high Ca is it binding to heat sources like PH's, pumps and heaters. If you're adding what you mention, you likely do not need to use RC and can simply use IO. I'm sure our resident chemists will dispute this but the chemical properties of two different products (RC and 2 parts) can often give either false readings or elevate CA to begin with while not giving enough to ALK. Some products just don't mix well together and cause others to fall from solution. IMO, I would make up 24hr in advance and change 10%, change 10% 48 hrs later and 10% in another 48 hrs and check for results. Make a new 10% as soon as you use it and let it aerate until you use it in 48hrs. Don't add your 2 part during this process. This will likely bring both your numbers to a reasonable range albet CA slightly higher. I say this not knowing what is in your tank or the demand on it either, but i say it in confidence.
tonkadawg October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 I've run into this problem before, but usually my CA is to low while my Alk is too high (I use a 2 part additive too). What I've found is that when doing a water change, my new water didn't have the numbers my tank did. Using IO salt, CA is really lacking - hence my high alk. To fix it, I did only add 1 part of my 2 part - the CA part. Slowly, very carefully and limited - testing after each dosage - this would take usually a week. Once I got my numbers back in line, I started dosing both of the 2 parts. One other thing to remember, once you get your levels correct, be sure to keep an eye on your MG - that helps with the whole CA/Alk balancing act.
Brian Ward October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 Reef Crystals has the levels of Ca boosted. If you don't have significant Ca use in the tank, I would switch back to IO and continue dosing the 2-part.
zotzer October 31, 2007 Author October 31, 2007 (edited) Thanks so much, Chip. I always have about 10g of saltwater mixing in a bin at any given time, so the first two changes won't be any big deal. (But duh...I just realized that it is RC that I have mixed and ready to go..LOL) And it's easy enough to switch salt. I guess either that, or I can keep up with the RC, stop the two-part, and boost the alk with some baking soda. That may not solve the low CA problem that I was initially trying to fix though. Although I was a whiz at most math and science subjects in my youth, I never really "got" chemistry, so thank heavens for you guys!! My tank is fairly new (August) with predominantly soft corals, but five or six small frags of sps. I appreciate all the help! Tracy Tracy, I find that the biggest issue with high Ca is it binding to heat sources like PH's, pumps and heaters. If you're adding what you mention, you likely do not need to use RC and can simply use IO. I'm sure our resident chemists will dispute this but the chemical properties of two different products (RC and 2 parts) can often give either false readings or elevate CA to begin with while not giving enough to ALK. Some products just don't mix well together and cause others to fall from solution. IMO, I would make up 24hr in advance and change 10%, change 10% 48 hrs later and 10% in another 48 hrs and check for results. Make a new 10% as soon as you use it and let it aerate until you use it in 48hrs. Don't add your 2 part during this process. This will likely bring both your numbers to a reasonable range albet CA slightly higher. I say this not knowing what is in your tank or the demand on it either, but i say it in confidence. Edited October 31, 2007 by zotzer
flowerseller October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 With the line up you're mentioning, I'd stick with the RC and stop 2 part. Many consider switching salt a slow process and I agree. Even from RC to IO or IO to RC. You have RC and I'd stick with it. If you want to change over, when you're a few changes away from empty, start mixing in your new salt in equal parts. A great, well timed, and consisstant WC schedule will often prolong the need for additional additives, especially with your load. When that need arises, I'd suggest Kalk for ALL top off and gently boost with calcium chloride IF needed. I don't believe Ca needs to be over, or much over. 400 myself. I like ALK 10-12 and my corals seem to agree.
zotzer October 31, 2007 Author October 31, 2007 A great, well timed, and consisstant WC schedule will often prolong the need for additional additives, especially with your load. When that need arises, I'd suggest Kalk for ALL top off and gently boost with calcium chloride IF needed. I don't believe Ca needs to be over, or much over. 400 myself. I like ALK 10-12 and my corals seem to agree. Will do! Thanks again for your help! Tracy
madmax7774 October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 I have the exact same problem, and have been dealing with it for a while now. I took an empty juice bottle, filled it with RO water, and then added a box of Arm & Hammer baking soda to create a high alkalinity solution. I have to add roughly 1 cup of this solution every couple of days to keep my alk at 9.8dkh. I find that my alk drops 1.4 dkh per day for each day I don't add from this solution. My calcium is usually around 490ppm. I run my RO topoff through a GSA kalkwasser with ESV brand kalk powder. From my research, I have determined that for me, it is time to add a calcium reactor to my system to keep the alk up. I am in the process of slowly acquiring the equipment to setup a calcium reactor. For now I do the regular dosing with the baking soda solution.
flowerseller October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 I have the exact same problem, and have been dealing with it for a while now. I took an empty juice bottle, filled it with RO water, and then added a box of Arm & Hammer baking soda to create a high alkalinity solution. I have to add roughly 1 cup of this solution every couple of days to keep my alk at 9.8dkh. I find that my alk drops 1.4 dkh per day for each day I don't add from this solution. My calcium is usually around 490ppm. I run my RO topoff through a GSA kalkwasser with ESV brand kalk powder. From my research, I have determined that for me, it is time to add a calcium reactor to my system to keep the alk up. I am in the process of slowly acquiring the equipment to setup a calcium reactor. For now I do the regular dosing with the baking soda solution. What do you find is causing such a high Ca level in your tank? If it's 2 part and you use kalk, you can safely bet the rent that is the problem. In you're case with a demand load like you are discribing, in my tank I would take 1/4-1/3 tsp of kalk, and add that to a PT of water/ shake and add whole thing to sump. Test after about 2 hrs or sooner when pH readjusts. pH will raise but fall quickley and settle .01-.02 higher than before the dump. You will/might see a small amount of cloudy water for a short period also. No biggie and that temporary spike WILL NOT hurt.
madmax7774 October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 Chip, I do not add 2 part. I just run my topoff through one of Dan's stirrirs(with ESV kalkpowder). As I understand it, a kalkstirrer doses calcium, and a calcium reactor doses alkalinity. As a temporary solution I have been adding baking soda to keep the alk up. Once I get the calcium reactor up, hopefully it will level things out. I may have to reduce kalk topoff levels to reduce calcium, but since i have been keeping the alk up, the growth has taken off significantly, which I'm hoping will use up more calcium, and get things back inline.
flowerseller October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 Chip,I do not add 2 part. I just run my topoff through one of Dan's stirrirs(with ESV kalkpowder). As I understand it, a kalkstirrer doses calcium, and a calcium reactor doses alkalinity. As a temporary solution I have been adding baking soda to keep the alk up. Once I get the calcium reactor up, hopefully it will level things out. I may have to reduce kalk topoff levels to reduce calcium, but since i have been keeping the alk up, the growth has taken off significantly, which I'm hoping will use up more calcium, and get things back inline. I can assure you you will be very hard pressed to maintain a Ca level much higher than 350, -370 tops with a softy load, even with your EVS kalk powder. And it will be very sort lived which is why I have reccomended people recharge their reactors more often. This is the case if you use a deltec type stirer or even a powerhead stirer. Most of us with CA reactors enjoy higher pH as a biggest benifit to adding kalk while Ca reacting with a side advantage to ALK & Ca.
jnguyen4007 October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 Doesn't low magnesium level also knock ca and alk out of balance as well?
madmax7774 October 31, 2007 October 31, 2007 I track my magnesium, and it is at 1280ppm, so that's not the cause of my problem. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm see the corrections for zone 4 part of this article, it is what I am using as my guideline. My tank is now primarily SPS. I used to suspect that my calcium test kit was off, but I have taken tank water samples to BRK on 3 seperate occasions to have it checked. It is consistently in the 460ppm to 480ppm range.
zotzer November 6, 2007 Author November 6, 2007 (edited) Okay....anyone here an expert at testing Calcium? I just re-ran a few tests this morning, to see if I've got this leveled out. morning pH (lights still off, but fuge light on) 8.0 alk 3.5 meq/l (better) Cal 390-450 Although my calcium tests never turn what I would consider true blue, I stop counting when it turns blue-ISH and seems to cease changing color as dramatically as it did before. This happens somewhere between 26 and 28 drops (although I continued to about 31 drops with no noticeable color change). Then I multiply by 15 to get the above range. It just seems so far off from the tests I had MS run last week, and all I've done is a 10+% water change and ceased addition of any two part. Do the value changes seem feasable for a 5-6 day period with only one water change? Oh, I DID add about 2 tsp of baking soda to a quart of top off water the day after I had the test results from the LFS. Thanks for your advice! Tracy Edited November 6, 2007 by zotzer
lanman November 6, 2007 November 6, 2007 Okay....anyone here an expert at testing Calcium? I just re-ran a few tests this morning, to see if I've got this leveled out. morning pH (lights still off, but fuge light on) 8.0 alk 3.5 meq/l (better) Cal 390-450 Although my calcium tests never turn what I would consider true blue, I stop counting when it turns blue-ISH and seems to cease changing color as dramatically as it did before. This happens somewhere between 26 and 28 drops (although I continued to about 31 drops with no noticeable color change). Then I multiply by 15 to get the above range. It just seems so far off from the tests I had MS run last week, and all I've done is a 10+% water change and ceased addition of any two part. Do the value changes seem feasable for a 5-6 day period with only one water change? Oh, I DID add about 2 tsp of baking soda to a quart of top off water the day after I had the test results from the LFS. Thanks for your advice! Tracy What kind of calcium test is that? Multiplying by 15 sounds easier than trying to find the sheet that came with the Salifert kit to see if .2 = 400. I know you don't have a ton of coral eating up calcium - but yeah - it could drop that much, I would think. If I didn't keep pumping two-part into my system it dropped pretty fast. bob
flowerseller November 6, 2007 November 6, 2007 You mentioned above Ca was somewhere between 400-500 so being at 390-450 is very realistic since it's essentially between 400-500 also. Did the same test get taken?
zotzer November 6, 2007 Author November 6, 2007 This morning's numbers were from my own tests. Not sure what mfr tests Marine Scene used for last week's numbers, but my calcium, alk and pH tests are part of the IO reef master kit. I have Salifert for ammonia and nitrite, but the "reef" tests are part of this kit. I guess I will monitor every day/every other day and see how the calc and alk change. Tracy
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