AEFW

[Rascal]

Turns out that what I had thought was just some tissue recession due to the combination of a drop in Alk and changing all my lights back in August is actually the dreaded AEFW. I think the issues I was having just gave the opportunistic little buggers the chance to get the upper hand. Here's a shot of the coral most affected:

A close up (little blurry but you get the point):

(Sorry, no cool close-ups of FWs and eggs here -- check Melev's site and reefcentral for that).

I took that one out and did an iodine dip on it for confirmation -- no question it was AEFWs. Upon closer inspection, I can see the same pattern of tissue loss and bite marks on at least 6-7 other colonies. I found that the best way to see it is to shine a bright flashlight at the bases of the corals after the lights in the tank have gone out.

 

So, I definitely have a problem. :( Question is, what to do about it?

 

1st order of business, to those I have given/traded/sold frags to -- sorry. If I had known I had 'em I would not have done it. I didn't see any signs of damage on any of the frags I let go, so hopefully you are lucky and none of those were infested.

 

2nd -- Did I dip & quarantine my corals before? No. Will I in the future? Yes. Some people just have to learn the hard way. After my bout with redbugs last Jan/Feb, I began dipping with interceptor, but that was it. Other than that I just bought from trusted sources and closely inspected everything before putting it in. I figured I was lucky. Guess not.

 

So looking forward, here's the plan:

 

I am going to use my 20G frag tank as a treatment tank. It is fed by a T from my return and then drains into the fuge. By shutting the ball valve and siphoning off an inch or so I can take it off-line at will. I have 2 mjmodded 600s in there for plenty of flow. I will try to maintain temp with a heater and fan. It is open top and there is a single 150W MH about 10 inches above the water level so hopefully that will work. If not I will have to think of something else. For water quality my plan is to do daily 25-50% water changes, 100% on treatment days. I figure I can just siphon out the water from the frag tank, and then open up the ball valve from the return to fill it back up. That way I will only be adding water from the rest of the reef, not freshly mixed saltwater. This should help maintain water quality and stability (although the latter will probably be tough overall since my Ca & Alk demand is likely to plummet).

 

The most daunting aspect of this is going to be removing every single acropora colony from the tank, including the encrusted bases. Surprisingly, this doesn't make me as sad as I would have thought. I think I have caught it early, so I haven't had any total losses (yet). I am looking at this as an opportunity to make a few changes in my aquascaping, and rearrange the corals to put more balance in the tank and give some of them more room to grow. I am going to remove the rocks with acros on them, cut off all of the healthy parts of the corals and put them in a temporary holding tank with tank water and flow while I work. All dead tissue will be discarded. Any encrusted bases will be scraped off. What can't be scraped off will probably get a kalk paste treatment to kill off any remaining tissue. The rock will then be rinsed in a bucket of tank water and then placed back in the tank. There are a couple of pieces of rock that I may not want to disturb. I will just do whatever I have to do kill any part of the coral bases that remain on the rock. The salvaged coral fragments will be mounted to disks and then placed on eggcrate in the frag tank. The geography here has me a little concerned. I am thinking of creating a holding rack with two removable shelves, and then rotating the corals every day or so to avoid shading issues. Once all of that is in place I will re-acquascape the tank.

 

Since many believe there are several different types of flatworms, I decided to attack on multiple fronts. I ordered some Revive Coral Cleaner based on the reviews I have read, and also some levamasole, and I'll probably hit them with TMPCC somewhere along the way as well, and I may even throw some interceptor in there once just for kicks. I am going to treat every 3-5 days, siphoning all of the water out and refilling with tank water after each treatment. Since the gestation time of the eggs is 14 days my plan was to put everything back into the display after 3 weeks. I figure this should be enough time for any remaining FW eggs to hatch and starve before I put the acros back into the tank. When I do this I will probably take them off the disks again. The only purpose for mounting them this way is to keep them nice and stable during their temporary home.

 

Any comments, questions, suggestions?

 

Does anyone think I need to take out non-acro sps as well? Do these things live on steriatopora or pocillopora? Is there any reason I should remove and treat them too while I am doing everything else?

[dandy7200]

I feel your pain bro.

 

This:

 

 

went here:

 

 

Once I started dipping I managed to save a couple acros. Levamisole at the suggested dose worked. 3 weeks of dipping later and I am clear. Took my frag tank plans and put them in the same metal can in lieu of a coral QT tank.

 

Good luck!

[Rascal]

I feel your pain bro.

 

A shame that happened to such a beautiful tank, but it's nice to know I'm in good company. :(

 

I don't think I will be using the metal can though. I've discovered that coral skeletons, once they are boiled, bleached (literally), and dried, make great decor for my son's hermit crab tank.

 

I remember you posting a while back about some issues with recession from the base. Did you initially think it was just Alk related?

 

Am I correct that prior to this, you dipped in TMPCC but didn't quarantine? Do you think the TMPCC didn't do it's job, or it was just that some eggs made it through? Did you lose the montis too? Nudis?

 

Live and learn, right.

[WallyBackm]

dam Dan! I cant believe it!!!!!! I had no idea. Sorry man

Edited October 31, 2007 by WallyBackm

[dandy7200]

A shame that happened to such a beautiful tank, but it's nice to know I'm in good company. :(

 

I don't think I will be using the metal can though. I've discovered that coral skeletons, once they are boiled, bleached (literally), and dried, make great decor for my son's hermit crab tank.

 

I remember you posting a while back about some issues with recession from the base. Did you initially think it was just Alk related?

 

Am I correct that prior to this, you dipped in TMPCC but didn't quarantine? Do you think the TMPCC didn't do it's job, or it was just that some eggs made it through? Did you lose the montis too? Nudis?

 

Live and learn, right.

 

 

I dipped everything in TMPCC, eggs got through. Corals stressed by low alk and whammo. Montis fine. From now on 4week or longer QT for EVERYTHING that goes in my tank. I've already designed my auto water change system to do a 50% WC daily on my QT tank. After using the Hog wormer and seeing the results, I won't be buying TMPCC anymore. Much quicker recovery time and since the water is not iodine colored it is easier to see what is at the bottom of your dip bucket.

[Rascal]

Update

 

Yesterday was a long day. Went from this:

 

To this:

 

I took out every rock that had an acropora on it. Cut, scraped, hacked, sanded, wire brushed, kalked, . . . whatever I had to do to remove every last vestige of acropora from the tank. The main goal was to remove the acros, but I figured I would treat while I was at it. I put 20 Gallons in a rubbermaid container [edit]. Corals went into this after being dipped in a 5 Gallon bucket of Revive / TMPCC, each at double strength. They sat in the dip bucket anywhere from 2-10 minutes. Before going into the holding tank they were swished in a container of plain saltwater. In the meantime I was working at removing all the bases and aquascaping. I ended up taking just about every rock out of the tank and putting them back in, which was quite a chore if you can imagine.

Here's a sample of what I found: .

The damage seems very localized. Corals closest to the mille pictured above were most affected (definite bite marks and tissue loss on shaded portions). Based on my observations, it doesn't seem like these thing float around the tank. More like they crawl from one coral to the next until they find food. Corals on the other side of the tank were completely unaffected. I almost didn't pull them . . . but I really don't want to have to do this again.

 

When all that was finally done I put them on two racks in my frag tank - turned QT tank. I added a few powerheads and some carbon (and a heater today thanks to rsarvis) . . what a mess:

.

I don't know how long they will last in there. The best I was able to do is make sure nothing is touching.

 

I did a more controlled treatment today: 15 min of TMPCC and levamasole. I figure I might as well hit them hard now while they still have some reserves. The next couple of treatments will probably be a lot milder.

 

So far all the colonies are ok. I've lost a few of the small frags that had broken off during removal but that seems to be it. Still, I don't know how much of this they can take. Thanksgiving seems a long time away at the moment. :(

Edited November 15, 2007 by Rascal

[dandy7200]

Heres my recipe for the levamasole dip:

 

First dilute the powder as per instructions on the bottle. In 5 gallons of tank water add 21ml of the liquid levamasole.

 

This gives you the exact ppm concentration you need to kill these son of a guns and doesn't stress the corals too much. The liquid levamasole will last for 3 months.

[Rascal]

Heres my recipe for the levamasole dip:

 

First dilute the powder as per instructions on the bottle. In 5 gallons of tank water add 21ml of the liquid levamasole.

 

This gives you the exact ppm concentration you need to kill these son of a guns and doesn't stress the corals too much. The liquid levamasole will last for 3 months.

 

The problem is that I got the powder kind not the liquid. The dose is supposed to be something like 1.89 g / 10 Gallons, but how much (in volume) is 1.89 g of levamasole? I guess can just dump the package into a measuring cup and then divide by the grams it says are in there to get a rough conversion if I can't find the info online somewhere.

Edited November 5, 2007 by Rascal

[Leishman]

The problem is that I got the powder kind not the liquid.

 

Read Dan's post again

 

 

First dilute the powder as per instructions on the bottle.

[dandy7200]

I am using this:

 

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/produc...amp;pf_id=16397

 

It contains 18.5g of levamisole Hydrochloride in a 500ml bottle.

 

If diluted to 500ml this will be 3.6% active or 36mg/g

 

I am making a 5 gallon dip at 40ppm :

 

5gal x 3.78L=18.9L 18.9L x 40ppm/36mg= 21g or 21ml give or take

 

 

21ml with a old test kit syringe is far easier to measure than 1.89g IME

Edited November 5, 2007 by dandy7200

['Ric]

What exactly is "AEFW"??

 

[YBeNormal]

Acro eating flatworms. Kind of like the flesh eating antibiotic resistant bacteria and just as difficult to get rid of.

[Rascal]

Read Dan's post again

 

First dilute the powder as per instructions on the bottle.

 

Thanks. I guess I just scanned too quickly and thought he bought one that was already in liquid form.

 

I am using this packet: http://www.valleyvet.com/swatches/16572_L_xxx_000.jpg

 

The directions from the web site:

Mix 52 gm packet in 8.75 oz. of water to worm 26 head of 500 lb. calves or 100 head of 120 lb. sheep. Once the powder has been reconstituted with water it will remain potent for 90 days under refrigeration. Dosage: 2 ml per 100 lbs. as a drench.

 

I'm not sure what all that means. I can't find the % activity info anywhere. The package says it contains 46.8 g of levamasole activity though, so maybe this will work:

[Edit: I think I've got it now }

46.8 diluted to 1000 ml will be 46.8 mg/g.

 

20 Gal x 3.78L = 75.6L

75.6L x 40 ppm/46.8mg = 64 g or 64 ml

 

Is that about right?

Edited November 5, 2007 by Rascal

[lanman]

I feel your pain bro.

 

This:

 

 

went here:

 

 

Once I started dipping I managed to save a couple acros. Levamisole at the suggested dose worked. 3 weeks of dipping later and I am clear. Took my frag tank plans and put them in the same metal can in lieu of a coral QT tank.

 

Good luck!

 

By the way - the blue-green staghorn in the upper part of the picture is the slowest growing darned coral in the world. What's it been - 4 months? The frag has mostly encrusted the small frag disk, but I think it's only gained maybe 1/4" in height. I talk to it... encourage it... but it might be a while before I can frag it. Like a year or two!

 

bob

[flowerseller]

 

By the way - the blue-green staghorn in the upper part of the picture is the slowest growing darned coral in the world. What's it been - 4 months? The frag has mostly encrusted the small frag disk, but I think it's only gained maybe 1/4" in height. I talk to it... encourage it... but it might be a while before I can frag it. Like a year or two!

 

bob

So stop talking to it Bob,

the skimmer can pick up the air with your breath in it and it's obviously stunting it's growth.

[Rascal]

Update:

 

UHHHG!! :( (and any other emoticon depicting extreme frustation / dismay).

 

Turns out my plan had a few flaws. Checked the treatment tank last night and everything looked extremely stressed - polyps all retracted and several colonies showed bleaching and/or tissue recession. A couple even had flesh pealing off them in spots. I think water changes plus carbon just weren't enough to maintain water quality in that small of a tank combined with all of the stress of treatment. Most of the corals seemed to tolerate the first couple of treatments I did just fine, but a good number of smaller frags didn't make it. My guess is that this started a downward spiral (dead coral flesh --> deteriorating water quality --> more dead coral flesh . . . ). On top of this even the corals that did OK initially were sliming very heavily. I think the 20 gallon will work fine as a QT/Treatment tank for a few frags at a time, but it just couldn't handle that much bioload and waste. Whatever the reasons, it was apparent that this was not going to work. I was afraid I would be looking at a total wipeout within a day or two.

 

So I hit the panic button and decided to return the colonies to the display. As much as I don't ever want to do this again, I would prefer that to a total loss at this point. I dipped again just to be sure and then closely inspected every coral one more time, cutting out anything that looked like it might possibly have eggs on it (didn't see any, but I erred on the side of caution), and loosely placed them back in the tank. A couple of the colonies that were worse off and most of the small frags stayed in the Treatment tank, which will continue to be segregated and treated as planned.

 

As much as I want to think that I did not place any eggs back in my tank -- I highly doubt that is the case. So my revised plan is to keep pulling the corals out for a dip once a week for at least three weeks. If I still see evidence of flatworms I will continue dipping. If this doesn't work I will have to bite the bullet and set up a larger and better equipped Treatment system.

 

How does that saying go? "Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease . . . "

[Leishman]

I ended up just tossing any coral that had bite marks. I only put the effort into saving 2 frags by dipping them, I couldn't bear to lose my Oregon Torts, the rest were throw =n out the back door.

[dandy7200]

I ended up just tossing any coral that had bite marks. I only put the effort into saving 2 frags by dipping them, I couldn't bear to lose my Oregon Torts, the rest were throw =n out the back door.

 

 

Pretty much same here. I took frags off colonies and threw away everything but the frag. Treating a bunch of frags was easier then the whole colony's. I know it sucks......

[Rascal]

Pretty much same here. I took frags off colonies and threw away everything but the frag. Treating a bunch of frags was easier then the whole colony's. I know it sucks......

 

I was wondering how you managed to fit all of that in a 5 Gallon bucket.

 

So far no total losses, but I have a few that are just barely holding on. I decreased the light cycle and gave everything a couple of good feedings today. We'll see if that helps.

 

On the bright side I am really happy with the new aquascaping, and the tentative new coral placement. If everything lives, I think it'll grow in quite nicely.

[Rascal]

I ended up just tossing any coral that had bite marks. I only put the effort into saving 2 frags by dipping them, I couldn't bear to lose my Oregon Torts, the rest were throw =n out the back door.

 

 

Pretty much same here. I took frags off colonies and threw away everything but the frag. Treating a bunch of frags was easier then the whole colony's. I know it sucks......

 

I ended up going partly that route. Here's the recap:

 

Day 1: Remove all acros to QT, 2-10 min (avg 5 min) Revive/TMPCC dip in the process. Good PE and color on most corals in frag tank, with the exception of small frags which RTN'd.

 

Day 2: 15 min dip in QT tank with TMPCC and Levamasole (still hadn't figure out the right dosage of this, though). Corals seemed fine afterwards.

Day 4: Corals looking extremely stressed. Lots of bleaching and tissue loss. Tissue loss seemed worst on part most affected by FWs, but some corals that never had a bite mark also looked bad.

Decided to return corals to display but wasn't completely satisfied I had dipped correctly so I did the following: (a) Full 40 min dip at 40 ppm Levamasole followed by 5 min dip in Revive; (b) cut and remove dead or dying sections as well as any parts that looked as if they had been severely affected by AEFW; © return healthy corals to display.

Days 4-7: Lost sarmentosa and ORA Blue Tort -- neither of which had a single bite mark. Tried to save a frag of blue tort but lost it. Still have a tiny frag of sarmentosa which is doing well.

Day 8: Decided to cut my losses and save what I could. Aggressively fragged everything I had left. Anything within 1" of a bite mark was cut and removed from the display. In some cases this meant keeping most of the colony, but in others it meant only a few small frags, and in a couple of cases I didn't even chance that and the whole colony was removed. Anything still alive but not deemed worth the risk of going back into the display went into the QT tank. Also began the process of re-stocking - picking up some new frags from Fins&Feathers, Dr. Mac, BRK, and Leishman. All new frags are going through the same dip process as salvaged corals.

Losses at this point: ORA blue tort, Chips Acro, CaribeanJake tricolor.

Day 9: Removed acros from display and dipped them in Fluke Tabs - 10 tabs / 10 gallons for 40 minutes. It had been 5 days since these corals had been treated. Corals seemed to tolerate this MUCH better than the levamasole. Slimed heavily but showed good PE and no further color loss within 10-20 minutes of being placed back into the tank.

Day 11: Mostly as an experiment, and b/c I figured I had nothing to lose, I decided to dip the remaining colonies in the QT tank in the levamasole once again. 40ppm for 40 min. It had been 7 days since these corals had been treated. This seemed to push many of them over the edge. Lots of bleaching immediately afterwards, and lost a few stags and some large frags of other acros by the next day.

 

Conclusions / Lessons learned so far:

1) I WAY overdid it with the dips in the first few days. Mostly this was because I did not take the time to make sure I was doing the treatments correctly, and the resulting uncertainty kept making me want to treat again "just to be sure."

2) I underestimated the corals tolerances to these treatments. This stuff is not like interceptor, which resulted in a near instant improvement in coral health and appearance. All of these treatments are hard on the corals. The levamasole kills not only worms but algae (all of the coraline in my QT/Treatment tank was wiped out), including the zooxanthalae.

3) Parts of the coral which have been nibbled on by AEFW are not likely to survive the treatments, so you might as well write them off as gone and frag what you can at the outset.

4) Of all the treatments I tried, Fluke Tabs is by far the easiest on the corals. It remains to be seen whether it works. My thought is that even if it is not as effective on adults, it will still kill the juveniles, which is all I need it to do at this point.

 

I have not seen so much as a single flatworm, or egg, since the first day of treatment. I think this is mostly due to getting rid of the affected portions of the corals. Although there have been reports of AEFW laying eggs everywhere (even amongst zoanthids) for the most part they prefer the bases or dead/dying portions of acros. I think (hope) that by getting rid of everything close to those parts, I have gotten rid of the eggs as well.

 

My plan at this point is to continue to remove most corals from the display and do the fluke tabs dip once a week. If I don't see anything after 2 or 3 more weeks, I will tentatively consider myself free of the pests. If I still don't see a sign of them in 6 months, I will consider it safe to sell/trade frags again.

[Leishman]

Get back on track and I'll give you a blue tort and a couple of other goodies.

 

I feel your pain

[Rascal]

Get back on track and I'll give you a blue tort and a couple of other goodies.

 

You already did (for a very fair price).

 

I bought a blue tort and red table acro frag from you at the meeting. Both are doing great so far.

[Leishman]

You already did (for a very fair price).

 

I bought a blue tort and red table acro frag from you at the meeting. Both are doing great so far.

 

 

Doh!

 

Well I give you other stuff then

[Rascal]

Long time since I've updated . . .

 

I continued with the plan outlined in the last post - removing and dipping everything two more times. At that point I decided to wait and see.

 

I am still really paranoid. One coral in particular I have pulled a couple of times to check and dip. I think it was just weakened from shipping stress and is taking a long time to acclimate (I am not helping things). It is very light on the shaded portions and it's just very hard to tell from looking into the tank whether or not I am seeing tissue recession. The last time I took it out I almost panicked when I thought I saw a couple of FWs on it, but further investigation with a tweezers revealed that the little circular darkened areas I saw were just the beginning of axial coralites. I found it was very easy to tell that I had the buggers when there was a large infestation, but I fear it may not be so easy to spot the signs of just one or two.

 

Anyway, at this point I would say I am about 85% sure I am cured.

 

Slowly but surely, the corals are starting to regain their colors. I am working on opening up a tank progression thread in the dedicated tank forum, so I will post recent pics there.

[flowerseller]

Glad to hear it Mike.

Do you have any wrasses in that tank there?