Carl

Can you list out your hardware? Also your livestock? What is the yellow zoo in the bottom right corner? -Carl

Do I smell another group purchase?? I don't currently have a refillable cartridge...but if this turns into a group purchase...I'd get one. I would want the color changing media as well... -Carl

It looks like Briariem. and yes, it grows fairly fast - similar to xenia in growth rate - so be careful where you put it...perhaps by itself in the sand bed...vs on your live rock. -Carl

Doug - That's hilarious !! With birthdays and wedding's and christening's coming up...I now have the one special gift I can give...without the fear of them receiving duplicate gifts !!! -Carl

Does WAMAS have bumper stickers? I would put one on my car - perhaps our new logo (the ones under consideration) to correspond with our new (being voted on) web site design? Something tasteful in size - perhaps 1.5 inches tall by 6 inches across? -Carl

Yes Garrett - thats the stuff I saw at MACNA. I think it would have cost me $1000 to purchase it from the vendor...There's got to be a way to make something like that on our own...use sand, crushed coral...just need some non-toxic bonding agent... -Carl Craig - They don't list pieces 36 inches high...but assume they would cost a little more than the pieces that are 29 inches high at $180 a piece, plus shipping. I'd need about 6 of them...so figure over well over $1000 in the end for my tank...there's no way I'm spending that on the background. Has anyone at WAMAS done something like this? and liked the result? either made their own? or purchased this from captive oceans? And again, there's got to be a better - cheaper - way to do this on my own. Purchase 4 bags of crushed coral and sand...mix it with some glue...and have my kids make finger designs in it...

I agree 100% on the planning. My initial plans are a FOWLR tank - mostly because I don't want to spend $ on chiller, lights, calcium reactor - and I'd like to have some of the non-reef safe fish I can't have currently. I have a 70 gal reef tank already. After a couple of years with a FOWLR, I may "upgrade" to a reef tank. I want to have everything in place if/when I "upgrade". ie - extra outlets, extra ball valves off of the return plumbing for chiller and calcium etc. So, right now, phase one, I am planning on: - 500 gallon tank - already have- install 24 inches from ceiling for maximum viewing height - H&S Skimmer-already have - but learned my lesson that I shouldn't have purchased it until I planned where it would go and how it would fit into system...I just bought it spur of the moment - 3 20amp 110v and 1 20amp 220v outlets/circuits already installed...I may need another 110v circuit?? - light box similar to Weatherson on RC, my initial lighting will be much lower though - humidity exhaust fan to outside - sump - decide size after figuring out stand - stand- in planning - plumbing with extra ball valves to support future - calc, chiller, Ozone maybe - Refug - not sure where that will go if 500 tank is high- i would like that to gravity feed back into tank - tank has 6 holes in bottom for CL - perhaps 3 up, 3 down using sequence pump - 2nd Sequence to run sump circulation, and refug, skimmer, UV - heater - not decided yet...drop in or in-line? - controller - initially I may go timers, depends on budget/timing - 2 drains in floor- planned out, not installed - flood alarm to central monitoring - installed - will use epoxy paint on floor - either high gloss paint or pvc paneling in room - power backup - 2500w generator - no full house backup in current plans Phase 2 I have a 150 gallon tank I'd like to use as a quarantine and/or frag tank. I don't know what I'll do - hook the two tanks together for non-quarantine times, and water changes? I'd like to only have to use one skimmer, one chiller, one refugium etc... So, here is where my plans start to fall apart as you can see... Should I have two redundant systems? 150 gallon may be too big for my needs...I may only want a 12 or 16 inch high frag tank...and need to sell 150 gallon. And the 150 will be too tall for the sump under the 500. Things that I don't have flexibility on - where tank will go, and how high I want it. Once that is nailed down THEN, I will continue the plan, build and purchase the rest of the stuff. The U-shaped legs...Remember the picture above in the thread of Sanjay's legs. He has one "upside-down U-shaped leg" on the left side of his tank, and one upside-down U-shaped leg on the right side of his tank, and I-beams connecting the two U-shaped legs. So one of the U-shaped legs, is really the front and rear right side legs welded together, with 2 45's for front/back support. I know this is making sense in my head. My thought was to build three of these double leg things...and use the 3rd one in the middle of the full span if necessary. I like your idea of cutting the V in the 4x4 legs and "hinge" it around. I love tools! and have some decent wood-working tools. I loved wood shop in school, and even built decks and house additions for 2 years after college. BUT, for some reason, I never took metal shop. I have no metal working tools, so am relying on my buddy. Sounds like you have some experience here...do you have the torch, welder, grinder and bandsaw? looking forward to your reply.

Jon, I think I will have to put the skimmer someplace other than under the tank...it is too tall. But, I want as much room underneath as I can get...sump, refug, Kalk, Ozone, UV, closed loop pump, chiller etc...Not to mention a frag tank, fresh water storage, salt water mix etc... I actually don't know what equipment I'll be using yet...for example, I don't have immediate plans for Kalk, Ozone, chiller, or frag tank, I just want to make the most of the space I have for if/when I add these things. I do have a "fish room", but currently have to share this room with our seasonal decorations - xmas, easter, luggage etc... -Carl

I really like the idea of a school project. I don't know anyone at VT or other college. But I have a few neighbors with kids coming home this summer...I'll ask around. My brother can get me the metal at a supplier's cost, so I talked with him about the plans you've drawn up for me. He's going to ask my buddy if we can build this somtime soon. What he was able to find are 20 foot I-beams, 4.16 tall, .280 thickness, and 13 lbs/foot. Since this comes in 20 foot pieces, I'll probably purchase two lengths, and have 4 I-beams underneath suporting the plywood. The square tubing he found was 4 inch square, 1/4 inch thick wall, at 12.21 lbs/foot. We'd build two U-shaped legs - very similar to Sanjay's - one on each end. With cross braces like Sanjay's front to back. The only mod there may be the cross braces up to the I-beam for lateral support (left and right) as you guys suggested. If we weld just the two outside (front and back) I-beams to the legs, it will keep the weight of the stand under 500 pounds. Then once the stand is in place, I can just place the two inside I-beams on top of the legs without welding. Otherwise lifting this thing in the air to get it in through the wall, and over the bar at the full 720 pounds will be impossible - no matter how much beer and pizza I have on hand. The last thing we may do, is to build a 3rd U-shaped leg for the middle of the span - built exactly the same as the other two U-shaped legs. I could decide to use it or not after I start putting the water in the tank. Even if I do use this 3rd leg, I'll be happy with the stand because I won't have the middle support with 3, 4-inch legs going to the floor - just the two legs - (hope this makes sense). So in all, 6 legs going to the floor - not 9. And I will assume that this middle leg will also NOT be welded in place. It will just sit there happily under the weight of the tank. Whadoyouthink?

Howard - I really appreciate your help on this. I will not hold you responsible for a falling/leaking tank. I am going to take the recommendations here, and give it to my buddy to see if/when he can put this together for me. I will definately take plenty of pictures along the way. -Carl Is there a place on the web where I can put in these "simple beam calculations?" Because I would like to confirm the use of just end-legs, and not a middle support. But, apparently there isn't anywhere to go (without spending $2300) to figure out the flex on an i-beam over a length, with a particular weight. I guess I really already know the answer to this - NO. I suppose in the end, building a leg in the middle of the span would just be $150 of insurance, and I'd then have to use 2 smaller sumps vs one larger one underneath. -Carl

I use one of the free picture-posting web sites, and put the link in my WAMAS postings, not the pictures themselves. I use photobucket.com -Carl

Howard - who's building your new tank stand? -Carl

Wow...I go to work for a day...and the thread fills up !! Howard I should have no problem getting things into the basement. I have a back door that should accomodate almost any stand. The one issue I may have is lifting the stand over the bar, into the picture framed hole, in through the wall behind the bar, and into the fish-tank room. But I think with enough hands, we won't drop it on the new counter. I agree that lateral support is necessary - cross beams as you suggested. Similar to what they have on Sanjay's going the "short" way front-to-back, but also the length/long way. Perhaps 4 of these - one on each leg - not just two on the front two legs. One concern - my tank will be longer - 108" vs. Sanjays 84". My tank is a full two feet longer with no support in the middle?? Is a 4-inch I-beam going to cut it? (Side question - which is stronger, I-beam or square tubing?) Two concern - My tank has 6 holes in the bottom for a closed loop. I haven't decided whether to use them or plug them up. They are all in a straight line about 1/3 of the distance from the back edge. (side note - I spoke with NAGA yesterday who said that bottom closed-loops are a recipe for headaches.) Three concern - With an acryllic tank, is 3/4 plywood sufficient. Sanjay's tank is glass, and is only supported at the edges vs acryllic that is supported throughout the entire bottom. Craig & Jeff (NAGA) Thanks for the pictures...and the links to Sanjay's stand...I'm glad i finally reached out for help on WAMAS! And have now made more progress in the last two days over the past 5 months. I assume there are different I-beams. Even though we are saying 4 inch, 3 inch etc...I assume there are different thicknesses. Craig/Howard - I don't understand the A36, 37 stuff. I am hoping to cash in on a favor of a buddy of mine for the welding. My buddy works at a metal shop, and does great work...issue is, no one at his shop would recommend what I should use for materials. -Carl

Craig - Thanks for the link. I'll read through this later today. -Carl

Howard, Top/Bottom Frames using 4" x 4" x 3/8 I assume you mean 4x4 square tubing? Do I need a bottom frame on the floor? Or can I just put 4x4 PT wood for the legs...right onto the concrete floor? Front against wall will have (2) additional 4"x4" post for added supports spaced evenly apart. If I put extra legs on the front (inside the wall), and not the rear...wouldn't this cause the tank to sag differently in the rear than in the front? Ceiling 94 inches high minus 36 inches tank height, minus 24 above the tank for maintenance and lights leaves you only 34" for tank height!!! Not alot but do-able! With only 24 inches above the tank just make my life too difficult? And the 34 inches underneath is really a lot less. You need to take away 6 inches for the stand and plywood and foam. Which only leaves 28 inches of height under the stand. No good for my skimmer, and I assume I'd have to make my sump tank 16 inches or less...especially if I put a full 4 inch bottom frame on the floor. :( And, not that I don't trust what you're saying...but I would really like to see somthing similar that has already been done...and still standing...I've had a lot of people tell me what they think should work, but no one can tell me for sure...or point to an example in action. I suppose if I wanted to know what will definatley work...I have to spend $2300. Howard - I really appreciate your input - Thanks. Dave, I purchased this tank from a Marine Scene Customer through Tom White. The whole reason I'm in this hobby is because of Tom - he was instrumental in getting my 70 gallon up and running. I asked him about his engineer, and called him...but the engineer won't call me back...perhaps because this job is too small??? Thanks for the recommendation.

Howard, The total tank size is 108" x 30" x 36 tall. I will build this into a wall - picture framed from the viewing area. The tank room is a 13x13 foot storage room currenlty filled with xmas decoration boxes. The tank is heavy - let's assume 500 pounds. No front panel - just rear access only from storage room. Add my 200 pounds, cause I'm going to be crawling around or standing on it trying to reach the fallen coral on the bottom front. I would also like a shelf (steel?) that sits on the I-beams, that extends 6 inches beyond the tank...like a shelf of sorts for me to put stuff on, and stand on. tank is acryllic. Left side is full 30 inch toothed overflow. Over flow area is 30" x 6 inches. I am familiar with the metal shop - that's where I got the steel for my basement project. In a perfect world, I'd like to have 4 legs - one at each corner, and two, 4-inch I-beam supports underneath going the 108 inches. Next, I could go with 6 legs. Three at each end, and three, 4-inch I-beam supports underneath going the 108 inches. But, I'd even go with 9 legs. Three at each of the two ends, and three in the middle. Supporting three 4-inch I-beams going the 108 inches. BUT, I have absolutly NO idea what it would take structurally to do this. The ceiling in the room is 94 inches high. I assume I'll need 30 inches above the tank for maintenance and lights. I would prefer the tank to be as HIGH as possible - and if you think I could get away with less than 30 inches above the tank...I'd do it. 24 inches? -Carl

No, it doesn't need to be steel. My thoughts are though to get the most usable room under the tank - use steel vs wood. Fewer legs, cross supports etc... I was originally hoping I could get a design that allowed for 6 or 9 legs, but only called for 4 inch or smaller steel I-beams. As it is, I don't think I'll be able to fit my skimmer underneath, no matter what I use for support. -Carl

For the past few months, I have been half-heartedly looking for a mechanical engineer to help me design my tank stand. With no luck, last week I turned to a local machine shop with an on-site certified mechanical engineer. I asked the question - what size I-beams do I need under the tank, assuming either 4, 6 or 9 legs. They understood my requirements, and would get back to me with an estimate for the plans. I got a call today saying that they've come up with the estimate for the PLANS only - not the stand - just the plans, and that I should come by to talk. So, I stopped by there on my way home this afternoon. He said that the stand could go one of two ways 4 legs or 6, but they said 6 legs, and two main beams running the length would work just fine. (flashback) About 2 years ago, I had a support column removed from one of the main house support I-beams in my basement. This required an engineered plan, with stamp, to determine what additional support I'd need to add to the I-beam to safely remove the steel column. For this work, I paid the certified engineer about $300 for the plan (I figure it took him 2 hours of work he could do in his sleep). I purchased the steel myself, brought it somewhere to get milled to the correct size, and had a local welder spend 2 hours welding the additional support to the original I-beam. This added about $800 more to this project - total $1,100. Overall, I am very happy with that project. (Back to today) Now get this...hope you're sitting down... The plan ONLY...just the plan...nothing but the plan...one piece of paper that showed me what size I-beam to use...with an engineers stamp...now get this...the plan only, will cost me $2,310.00. What am I to do? Is there anyone out there that has a tank - approximately 450 gallons - 108x30x36high - that has used steel for a stand - that can help me out here. I know I can over-build the stand by using 3, 10 inch beams, and 15 legs. But I want to leave as much room as possible under the stand for the equipment, sump, chiller, ozone, refugium etc... HELP !!

NAGA - where are you located?

So Lee, if you look down into your tank, from the top, along the back, is there a gap between the glass and the rock? And you can see the plumbing from the top only? Does your rockwork go to the top of the water? Can you see your back glass from the front? It sounds like you don't clean the back glass. -Carl

You're 100% correct... Then it comes down to cleaning the back a couple of times a week vs. putting rock there. Did you see that guy on ReefCentral...weatherson...that put a black piece of plexi across the back of his 240 gallon tank...but painted it several shades of blue...increasing the darkness towards the bottom. It looked very nice...as long as it's kept clean of course.

Yanek, If I do something similar to this...I agree...I wouldn't want it to be too thick/deep. Depth of the tank - front to back is good! I did a google search for the Tunze deco rock...no luck...do you recall what it was called? or where I could find it? -Carl

Has anyone put LR or something else across the entire back (and/or sides) of their tank? I'm thinking if I can do this it gives me one less thing to clean every week - as I don't like the partial clean look. I thought I saw a booth at MAGNA that was selling some man-made, coral-like, white rock to put against the back of the tank. Of course it will only take a matter of time before stuff starts growing on it...and make it fit right in. -Carl

In finishing my basement, I removed a pole supporting an I-beam. The span was 20 feet in total, with one column in the midde (i.e. 2, 10-foot spans). One end was buried in the poured concrete wall, and the other on a column. I consulted a certified engineer - got a stamped and approved drawing - I didn't want the house to fall. In the end, the solution was to weld a 1/2 inch plate to both sides of the I-beam - but for only the middle 10 feet. I expected the design to call for adding the plates the entire 20 feet of the I-beam, but the engineer said I only needed to support the middle 10 feet. I did this 2+ years ago, and have had no issue - no bounce upstairs, and no cracking drywall downstairs. -Carl

Wow - Very cool. Looks like you made it out of plywood, then a coat of epoxy paint?? over the wood. Then did you just glue a piece of glass to the front? Never seen it done this way...Very nice. -Carl