Montipora Eating Nudis

[dbartco]

Somehow introduced these evil things into the system. Haven't added a monitpora into the system since late Aug, but now have discovered them in the tank. Must have come in on something else. Lost 2 large monti's already.

 

Link in RC has some info, but looking for local help that my have had them.

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...25&pagenumber=1

 

I know I sold some caps recently. To all those that bought, please be vigilant.

[flowerseller]

Doug,

Did you try that coral dip from MACNA?

[dbartco]

I did use the reefdip with a a double dose and scrubbed them last night. It was all I had. From what I read most iodine medications don't always work. Interceptor doesn't touch them. Copper Sulphate based seem more effective, but not 100%. The only good news is that it is only affecting the monti capricornus, and not the hispida or the supermans. God let is stay that way! Acro's are all perfectly fine. And, they can stay in there for long after the montis are gone.

 

There did not seem to be any progression this morning. But I am sure they are still in there. More reasearch today.

 

[Lee Stearns]

Very scary thread- makes one wonder about all the national frag sharing we were talking about. I guess I really will have to do some dipping and quarantine of new corals. Just tough to have a duplicate system. Makes chip's frag tank that can be totally stand alone for periods of qurantine and then plummed into the main tank when not quaratined seem like a truely great idea.

[dbartco]

How often do we QT our corals for 2 months? That was the last time I added a monti from and unknown source before these showed up. From N.E.A. at Macna.

 

A removable frag tank/QT is what I have, but cannot use copper based with.

 

Another QT and patience thread, just more patience I guess....

 

I would love to hear about any mpnti cap frags I sold last month. Anyone?

[flowerseller]

I'm trying to think what we traded the last time.

BTW, I made several cap frags that I did with thumb nail sized pieces glued at different angles. Man are they looking sweet after not seeing them for a week.

 

Good luck Doug(bug) get it?

[Guest HVF21221]

I lost all my monti's in a reef due to the nudi. I had 6 or 7 corals. They came in on a digi but moved to my plating montis first then destroyed the rest. I tried dips and manual plucking. After about 2 months I lost the battle. I had 2 huge caps. I hope you have better luck but prepare yourself for the worse. When I sqirted them off with a syringe my gold stripe maroon would eat them but I don't think any fish could get rid of them. They hide and lay eggs on the undersides of the corals. The tight spots they hide are too small for fish to get them.

[davelin315]

Hey Doug, I remember reading about the super corals that were being bred through the use of hypersalinity. I wonder if these nudibranchs would drop off if you did a quick dip in super saline tank water. Kind of like a quick burn to their sensitive skin, but something that the coral could handle. Might be worth a try if you have a tiny frag you can try it out with first. I would think that they would quickly be burned by a higher concentration of salt and then would quickly drop off of whatever you dipped. Not sure of this, only a guess, but if you run out of other ideas it might be worth a shot. If you're otherwise going to lose the coral anyway, might as well give it a shot.

[WDLV]

Hey Doug, I remember reading about the super corals that were being bred through the use of hypersalinity.  I wonder if these nudibranchs would drop off if you did a quick dip in super saline tank water.  Kind of like a quick burn to their sensitive skin, but something that the coral could handle.  Might be worth a try if you have a tiny frag you can try it out with first.  I would think that they would quickly be burned by a higher concentration of salt and then would quickly drop off of whatever you dipped.  Not sure of this, only a guess, but if you run out of other ideas it might be worth a shot.  If you're otherwise going to lose the coral anyway, might as well give it a shot.

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I've heard of the hyposalinity treatments over long durations, what is this hyper salinity treatment? ie: What is the recommended SG and duration for such a treatment and what types of problems has it been recommended for?

[BeltwayBandit]

I'm a bit doubtful as to weather or not hypersalinty would work. The reason that hyposalinity and freshwater dips work is that it reverses the osmotic potential across the cell membranes. The smaller organisms literally can't handle the influx of water and their cells rupture (cryptocarion for example). What is the saturation concentration for salt in 80 degree water? Can you get enough salt to "burn" an organism? What organic mechanism would that trigger? Would it "dehydrate" the organism by accelerating osmosis across the membrane? Hmm.. I'll have to look at that.

 

BB

[flowerseller]

I dropped my SG to 1.016 as a massive water change long ago (winter 1991) as I was

having something eating my corals (fish stayed in too). I had done a fresh water dip

for my fish and no one knew what I was discribing so I felt I had nothing to loose.

Over the course of a week or so, I added a cup of salt mix a day to the sump until I was back up to 1.025 where I kept it. I stopped what ever it was and all fish faired fine but most of the corals bleached. I atributed this to a lower KH from a lower specific gravity

than I did anything else.

[dbartco]

Thanks for the advice guys. I don't want to run the risk of bleaching the entire tank with lower salinity. I still think repeated out of tank copper sulphate treatments runs the best chance of removal. I might be taking these guys to BRK and see if we can stick them under a microscope and torture. I saw a few more on them this morning. I have not seen them on anything but the capricornus. Not the digitata, hispida or danae.

 

That true Howard? Only your caps right? Have you since returned to keeping them, or staying cap free. What do you think is a good timeframe to let them die off?

 

Just when you start to feel good about the way things are growing, this hobby throws the curve. I still love it, but frustrating....

 

Again, a call out to Steveoutlaw and Jwildman. Steve may have passed on in the tank breakdown, but how are these caps doiing that I sold to you last month?

 

Chip, we traded on Nov 3 I think. No caps, only acros. you were the last trade I made.

[Guest HVF21221]

They ate my caps first then everything else. (superman danae, digi's) I read you should go without monti's for 3 months but I'm not sure how the people on RC came up with that number. I have not added any monti's since and it's been about six months. Maybe I will soon.

[davelin315]

I'm a bit doubtful as to weather or not hypersalinty would work.  The reason that hyposalinity and freshwater dips work is that it reverses the osmotic potential across the cell membranes.  The smaller organisms literally can't handle the influx of water and their cells rupture (cryptocarion for example).  What is the saturation concentration for salt in 80 degree water?  Can you get enough salt to "burn" an organism?  What organic mechanism would that trigger?  Would it "dehydrate" the organism by accelerating osmosis across the membrane? Hmm.. I'll have to look at that.

 

BB

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Just to make sure I'm clear on this, I have never done this before. I don't know that it would work, but who knows. If you're faced with a severe problem, maybe this is what would help it. My thinking goes along these lines: getting a leech off of your skin sometimes can be accomplished by dropping salt on them, since this works on them then I would assume that it would also work on a nudibranch. I don't know how high the concentration would have to be, but I would think that the first reaction from them would be to contract their muscles very quickly, which in turn would probably result in them letting go of whatever they were holding on to. I don't know what effect if any this would have on eggs, but it might work on adults. I don't know what harm would come to the coral, however, as it could also be damaged.

 

My best guess is that the coral would be OK as long as the concentration was not too high, and that it wouldn't necessarily kill off the nudibranchs with the quick exposure, but it would probably get them to let go. I won't even guess as to whether the exposure of the eggs to hypersalinity would result in super nudibranchs like the exposure does to coral eggs. Maybe even a quick freshwater dip with a quick hypersalinity dip would do the trick. Corals can be exposed to varying degrees of salinity depending on their location, so maybe it wouldn't hurt them too much. I think it's worth investigating if you're going to lose the battle, but it's a judgment call beyond that.

 

One piece of evidence that I would think would support the nudibranchs letting go, when I had aggressive tanks and fed them goldfish, I remember watching as the goldfish were dropped into the water and seeing the water leaking out of their skin in their bodies attempt to osmoregulate (is that the right word?). As this water poured out of their bodies, the fish would go nuts as they could instantly smell the new food in the water. Kind of like sending them into shock by having all of this going on in their bodies. Maybe I'll try it with some aiptasia rock and report what I find to everyone.

[unninair]

Ask questions at www.seaslugforum.net They are very good at providing answers and suggestions

 

Unni

[BeltwayBandit]

One piece of evidence that I would think would support the nudibranchs letting go, when I had aggressive tanks and fed them goldfish, I remember watching as the goldfish were dropped into the water and seeing the water leaking out of their skin in their bodies attempt to osmoregulate (is that the right word?).  As this water poured out of their bodies, the fish would go nuts as they could instantly smell the new food in the water.  Kind of like sending them into shock by having all of this going on in their bodies.  Maybe I'll try it with some aiptasia rock and report what I find to everyone.

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Mmmm.. nothing like some fresh goldfish juice to stimulate the gullet!

[flowerseller]

If I read this last part right I would strongly reccomend not putting salt directly on the corals in any way. That would burn the tissue right off never to return.

How high an SG can safely go I would 1.040 tips and for a short time at best.

 

I would bet a vinegar added to the mix as a dip might not be too bad.

[Jon Lazar]

Weren't these guys addressed at MACNA? My notes are all at work, but I'll try to remember to bring them home tomorrow. If I remember right, you have to get all the adults, so no more eggs get laid. Then you have to get all the juveniles that eventually hatch before they get mature enough to lay more eggs.

 

Jon

[fishface]

I was searching WetWebMedia, because I've just had my first red worm outbreak. Okay, my tank has the worms. Anyway, one person lowered their sality to 1.012.

Calfo said that it's likely everything including inverts and cops would be severely knocked by this.

Did you try a search there?

[geofloors]

You'll never get rid of them unless you remove ALL montiporas from the tank. There is no treatment that will kill the nudibranches and not kill the corals. Manual removal will get the larger nudibranches but there will be tiny nudis that are searching your rock work for more montiporas. There will also be tiny gelatin looking egg masses. From my experience the nudibranches will go from egg to egg laying adult in about 2 weeks. One adult can lay thousands of eggs that will hatch out in about 10 days. I'm sure you can now imagine why manual removal is a waste of time. Don't count on any fish to do the work for you either.

 

Only way to get rid of them... You will need 4 quarantine tanks with aged water. This can be done with 2 tanks that you sterilize after the process.

 

1) Remove each montipora from main tank and inspect and remove and nudis and egg masses you see. Use a magnifying glass because fresh hatched nudis are tiny.

 

2) After 8 days remove each montipora and re-inspect and remove any nudis and egg masses you see. There should be very few if stage one was a success.

 

3) After 8 days remove and re-inspect each montipora. If you still have nudis or egg masses got back to step 2

 

4) If montiporas are clean of nudis and egg masses place in tank for a full 14 days. If at the end of 14 days the montiporas are clean then they will be safe to add back to your main tank. If montiporas show any signs of nudis or eggs then go back to stage 2. You really need to inspect each piece closer this time. Any nudis left in main tank would have starved by now and no reproduction should have occured. If any traces of montipora was left in the tank then there is an excellent chance that the nudis are still alive and continued quarantine is needed.

 

Forget everything else, by the time any of the other methods are used the nudis will be too established and your montiporas will be gone in 2 weeks. If you get a major egg hatch out these nudis can consume a large cap in a few nights. Don't waste time if you value you hard to get montiporas.

 

Sometimes it's easier to throw away the common stuff and concentrate on the hard to find montiporas (superman, rainbow, sunset, confusa, etc) It's a fact that the nudis will always go after plating montis first because they eat the undersides first. Usually by the time you know yu have them they are alreay in plague proportions.

 

 

George

[dbartco]

Thanks George for the info. I need to setup a second quaranteen tank to sterilize the first. I have not subjected them to anything but iodine solutions so far. I am assuming you feel that copper sulphate solutions are not worth while. Correct? Too harsh?

 

I have had some success with putting full concentration Reefdip directly on them and blowing them off. (seems to loosen their grip a bit. I have separated, but there are a few other plating caps in the tank grown over the rockwork that I cannot remove. Thinking I should just kill what is left with pipeted boiling water or something. Might speed up the process somewhat. Having problems finding them now, gusss just waiting for the next wave.

 

constant :wall: When is this going to get fun again?

[Armson]

You'll never get rid of them unless you remove ALL montiporas from the tank. There is no treatment that will kill the nudibranches and not kill the corals. Manual removal will get the larger nudibranches but there will be tiny nudis that are searching your rock work for more montiporas. There will also be tiny gelatin looking egg masses. From my experience the nudibranches will go from egg to egg laying adult in about 2 weeks. One adult can lay thousands of eggs that will hatch out in about 10 days. I'm sure you can now imagine why manual removal is a waste of time. Don't count on any fish to do the work for you either.

 

Only way to get rid of them... You will need 4 quarantine tanks with aged water. This can be done with 2 tanks that you sterilize after the process.

 

1) Remove each montipora from main tank and inspect and remove and nudis and egg masses you see. Use a magnifying glass because fresh hatched nudis are tiny.

 

2) After 8 days remove each montipora and re-inspect and remove any nudis and egg masses you see. There should be very few if stage one was a success.

 

3) After 8 days remove and re-inspect each montipora. If you still have nudis or egg masses got back to step 2

 

4) If montiporas are clean of nudis and egg masses place in tank for a full 14 days. If at the end of 14 days the montiporas are clean then they will be safe to add back to your main tank. If montiporas show any signs of nudis or eggs then go back to stage 2. You really need to inspect each piece closer this time. Any nudis left in main tank would have starved by now and no reproduction should have occured. If any traces of montipora was left in the tank then there is an excellent chance that the nudis are still alive and continued quarantine is needed.

 

Forget everything else, by the time any of the other methods are used the nudis will be too established and your montiporas will be gone in 2 weeks. If you get a major egg hatch out these nudis can consume a large cap in a few nights. Don't waste time if you value you hard to get montiporas.

 

Sometimes it's easier to throw away the common stuff and concentrate on the hard to find montiporas (superman, rainbow, sunset, confusa, etc) It's a fact that the nudis will always go after plating montis first because they eat the undersides first. Usually by the time you know yu have them they are alreay in plague proportions.

George

46436[/snapback]

 

 

Doug,

 

Sent PM

 

 

Byron

[geofloors]

Thanks George for the info. I need to setup a second quaranteen tank to sterilize the first. I have not subjected them to anything but iodine solutions so far. I am assuming you feel that copper sulphate solutions are not worth while. Correct? Too harsh?

 

I have had some success with putting full concentration Reefdip directly on them and blowing them off. (seems to loosen their grip a bit. I have separated, but there are a few other plating caps in the tank grown over the rockwork that I cannot remove. Thinking I should just kill what is left with pipeted boiling water or something. Might speed up the process somewhat. Having problems finding them now, gusss just waiting for the next wave.

 

constant  :wall:  When is this going to get fun again?

46446[/snapback]

 

 

How are you going to dose the copper sulfate? The whole tank? If not then why bother. Same with the reef dip. You are just delaying the inevitable. You will never rid your tank of these nudis unless you remove all food source for them. Even though you don't see them, if there has been any eggs that have hatched then your tank has baby nudis all over it searching for more montiporas to eat. Those montiporas that have grown on your rocks are going to be a problem. Somehow you need to remove them or kill them.

 

 

 

George

[dbartco]

I was only considering the copper sulphate solution by treating the monties in a tank that would be doomed to only be used for copper treatments (or in the future if needed). - To clean and possibly save some of the monties. At least worth a shot?

 

The reefdip I was applying with a pipet directly to the coral, out of the q tank at full concentration, then rinse off in a bucket of water from the tank. Only thing it seems to do is loosen their grip. I doubt I am killing them. Not considering treating the whole tank. I will work on killing off the remaing monties in the main tank.

 

I found a spot on the hispida tonight. Joy

[fishface]

Hey Doug:

 

Re-read the link here from WWmedia. It's not the actual solution but it explains how hyposalinity would work in exploding inverts. While there may not be a guarantee that you would see them, I realize that the seconday benefit is that you literally can pay better attention to it, and might find something sooner than later.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quarinverts.htm

These two links address your issue: The first might have your actual pest.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/...ature/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rs/index.php

 

It also describes how to place them so that you can most likely see something (if it is the kind of pest that drop off. The quarentine process described by Geofloors would assist here.

 

Meanwhile, in the first article, if show the red flatworms that I have in my 'fuge, so this is nearly as bad.

Good luck, and may the force be with us.

Dave