What? How? Why?

[Jan]

I took 3 fish out of my main display because their fins appeared a little frayed. I observed them for several days in QT and decided to treat for fin rot with antibiotics. They where doing much better. Their fins were growing nicley. They were all eating very well. They've been in Qt for about 7 weeks now. I thought I'd leave them in there until the fins were completely healed. They had a small amout of fin rot. Not anything major. No signs of anything else. Very active fish. 1 blue chromis, 1 pyramid utterfly and 1 genicanthus M.

 

Yesterday I go to feed them and notice that my Genicanthus M did not come out to eat. She is a piggy and always eats. then I noticed that my butterfly had white granular salt light spots all over its body. Ich!!! I did a large water change and checked all params then dosed formalin. The antibiotic treatment was complete last week and I've made 2 large water changess since. I used formalin because the angel does not handle copper well at all. I thought I'd start off with something easier. About an hour later I found the angel laying up against the side of the tank. I noticed that her color was way off and she had what appeard to be a fungus looking growth toward her fin in addition to a grayish speckled slime coating. I thought velvet. How could it be? These fish came out of my main DT where everything is fine. They've been in a clean, well cycled and establish sterilized QT in hyposalinity at 1.010 for weeks. Yes sterilized. I cleaned the tank with bleach and water before I set it up. It cycled for 2 months before I needed to us it.

 

I took the female angel out of the tank with the fromalin and placed her in my second QT in water with the same parameters and no meds. She was gasping for air last night. I haven't gone to check on her. I'm sure she's dead. She declined rapidly and usually they don't make it when they start to spiral down like that.

 

Why did these fish develope ich and whatever else the angel had? Is it something they had in the past and stressed made it surface? I understand that can be the case with ich but grayish slime and rapid decline suggests velvet. Does velvet lay dorment in fish? Nothing new was introduced into those QTs. What could have happened?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Coral Hind]

How long had it been since anything else was in the QT or was it freshly setup? If the QT was already running it could have been something left over. I think your guess that the fish were already carrying it and the stress caused their natural defenses to weaken is probably right. Just the netting process alone can cause the slime coat to get messed up and allow ich or similar things in.

[Jan]

Those two QTs have not been used in over 6 months. They have been empty and dry until about 3 months ago. Before I set them up I cleaned them with bleach and water. I set them up about 2 weeks after I cleaned them and let them cycle. They've been set up and cycled for 2 months before I placed these fish in them. the only net used was the net from my main display which I used about 7 weeks ago to place them in QT. I've not had to net them since. Params were fine before I performed a water change and dosed the formalin. This happened overnight. there was nothing new introduced into that QT. I have been feeding the same food for 7 weeks as well.

[Jan]

Oh and forgot to mention that the angels abdomen was very bloated. She looked like she had dropsey or something.

[Sharkey18]

I hate to say it but I think ich / velvet is always around. Careful QT can help lower the risk, but does not ensure it's not present.

 

Also as soon as I see spots I do not assume ich. I assume velvet and start copper. I know it's stressful, especially to Angels, but I have lost too many fish after waiting too long. By the time you can easily distinguish velvet from ich, it is often too late. Since the treatment is the same for both, why not? If it turns out to just be ich, and NOT velvet, all the better.

 

I also treat with copper in my QT wether I see spots or not. New fish are stressed enough from catching, shipping, acclimation etc. I know copper adds more stress but I think all the stress of getting to our tanks make them prime candidates to get sick and I'd rather add a little more stress instead of leaving them on their own to fight the infections.

 

I also don't cycle my QT. I use fresh salt water or tank water and do frequent water changes. I am concerned that adding a sponge or whatever seed material I use could also be a source of parasites.

 

I am really sorry for your losses. It totally sucks.

[jaddc]

You sterilized the tank -- did you also sterilize the plumbing and filtration that also contact the water?

[Jan]

Yep. Everything got soaked and cleaned with bleach and water.

 

You sterilized the tank -- did you also sterilize the plumbing and filtration that also contact the water?

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[jaddc]

Sorry to hear this -- I know it is incredibly frustrating.

 

If it makes you feel any better, my fish LOVE your food. If I give them anything else they turn their fins up at it.

Edited January 4, 2013 by jaddc

[Jan]

Thanks, Laura. I like to take a conservative approach unless I'm absolutely sure; hyposalinity then meds. If I need to be aggressive I use both copper and fromalin right away on alternate days.

 

The Butterflys spots are all gone. The chromis never had them and the angelfish, as I suspected, is dead with no visble signs of anything. I know once a fish gets ich it is to be assumed that it is in their system. Stress will cause it to surface. I've not heard that velvet is something fish harbor like ich. this is what is puzzling to me.

7 weeks later is a very long time for something to just pop up. For 3 fsh to have three different sets of signs and symptom, one of which has been asymptomatic the entire time, is very strange to me. I'm still puzzled.

 

In my opinion adding tank water and doing water changes is no different than adding media and then taking it out. They will both harbor whatever is/was in the system they came from.

 

My Qt's are permanenty set up. I do weekly water changes and check params regulary. I cycled them from scratch; fresh water, stability and fish food everyday to start the cycle. This is all I do. No existing tank water, substrate or LR. No cross contamination. When I'm done with these fish the QT will be sterilized and cycled again.

 

I used to have a small tank dedicated to QT that I would set up with tank water or fresh water when I needed it. Both too unstable for me because of the possibility of existing water to habor disease and the instability of fresh water with no bacteria. I decided to always keep two tanks going for QT both fully cycled from fresh water at all times. I have one for antibiotics, prazi and the like and the other for copper only. Copper does not wash out of silicone. Other meds do. If while I'm cycling the QTs again I find myself in need of QT right away I'll set up a temp with fresh water and dose with stability or prime and have amquel waiting. I hate the later because it requires more testing and observation than an already cycled QT.

 

Boy oh boy do I know about losing too many fish. I lost all except for 2 out of 21 fish from a velvet outbreak 2 years ago. I was physically wiped out for almost two weeks from that one.

 

I hate to say it but I think ich / velvet is always around. Careful QT can help lower the risk, but does not ensure it's not present.

 

Also as soon as I see spots I do not assume ich. I assume velvet and start copper. I know it's stressful, especially to Angels, but I have lost too many fish after waiting too long. By the time you can easily distinguish velvet from ich, it is often too late. Since the treatment is the same for both, why not? If it turns out to just be ich, and NOT velvet, all the better.

 

I also treat with copper in my QT wether I see spots or not. New fish are stressed enough from catching, shipping, acclimation etc. I know copper adds more stress but I think all the stress of getting to our tanks make them prime candidates to get sick and I'd rather add a little more stress instead of leaving them on their own to fight the infections.

 

I also don't cycle my QT. I use fresh salt water or tank water and do frequent water changes. I am concerned that adding a sponge or whatever seed material I use could also be a source of parasites.

 

I am really sorry for your losses. It totally sucks.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Jan]

It is very frustrating, yes.

 

LOL!!! You did make me feel better. Thank you.

 

Sorry to hear this -- I know it is incredibly frustrating.

 

If it makes you feel any better, my fish LOVE your food. If I give them anything else they turn their fins up at it.

[Jan]

Genicanthus M is dead with no visible signs of anything. Gills clamped shut and they are not red. The fish looks perfect. I'll post pics later.

[ridetheducati]

Formalin is very hard on fish. Are you dipping the affected fish in Formalin or treating the QT with Formalin? Also, what kind of Copper, chelated or non-chelated? Be careful with Copper and Prime, it is a lethal concoction. Were the fish in the main display quarantined?

 

Continue to monitor the fish in the main display for possible signs of ich or velvet. Do you have an UV? I ask about UV because some people use UV as a prophylactic against parasites and do not change the bulbs regularly thus the parasite population increases. [soap box] Personally, I am not a fan of UV, but that is a discussion for a different thread. [/off soap box]

 

Your main display has acceptable water quality and diet, so look to fish aggression or possible crowding.

[marinap]

Keep in mind that Formalin depletes O2, so increase oxygenation in the QT.

[Jan]

I only dip fish in FW w/meth blue when I do dip them.

 

I treat according to mfr instructions when dosing whatever I dose except for copper with angelfish. I only dose in QT with the exception of prazipro. I usually only use half strength copper safe when I dose copper for angels.

 

I usually only use stability or prime to help with cycling in bare tanks. Only once did I have to use it in a temporary holding tank with livestock. Thanks for the info.

 

I have a mixed reef and the only treatment I can use in it is Prazipro.

 

The fish in my DT all appear fine; active, not a blemish and eating very well.

 

I have a 57 watt aqua twist UV. I change all bulbs, including lights, every 6-10 months. I love my UV sterilizer. I do believe it helps reduce bacterial and viral load as well as keeping the water clear and reducing algae growth. I have one in my QT tanks as well. People should never use UV in main DT as an alternative for QT.

 

My display has exceptional water quality for the ampunt of bioload I have. All are fed excellent all natural foods with vitamins and antioxidants. My fish are never aggressive towards each other unless they are guarding a nest, den or batch of eggs.

 

Every now and again situations like this stump me. That's why I posted my situation to group. All sound advice. Thank you.

 

Formalin is very hard on fish. Are you dipping the affected fish in Formalin or treating the QT with Formalin? Also, what kind of Copper, chelated or non-chelated? Be careful with Copper and Prime, it is a lethal concoction. Were the fish in the main display quarantined?

 

Continue to monitor the fish in the main display for possible signs of ich or velvet. Do you have an UV? I ask about UV because some people use UV as a prophylactic against parasites and do not change the bulbs regularly thus the parasite population increases. [soap box] Personally, I am not a fan of UV, but that is a discussion for a different thread. [/off soap box]

 

Your main display has acceptable water quality and diet, so look to fish aggression or possible crowding.

[Jan]

Sean from F&Fs told me this too so I keep two powerheads in my QT pointed up and I open the window in the basement when I treat with meds. The window was open yesterday and the day before for several hours for this very reason.Thank you.

 

Keep in mind that Formalin depletes O2, so increase oxygenation in the QT.

[Demeat50]

For what it is worth, I had 3 fish die since Dec 30. A yellow eyed kole, blonde naso, and a coral beauty. It all started about 3 weeks ago when I got a diamond sleeper goby from an LFS. RG1 (zygote2k) helps me with my tank and said he thought the kole tang had ich. Thinks maybe it came from the goby but who knows. I could not see anything so watched it carefully ever since then. It was eating a lot and looked fine to me even up until the morning of the day it died. When that died then I went to observe all the others and noticed the blonde naso and coral beauty were missing. Couple people including RG1 have told me there is a lot of ich and velvet coming out of several wholesalers in LA. I don't QT so I guess this is all my fault but it sucks. I got a QT yesterday and am setting it up this weekend. More to learn for me.

[ridetheducati]

For what it is worth, I had 3 fish die since Dec 30. A yellow eyed kole, blonde naso, and a coral beauty. It all started about 3 weeks ago when I got a diamond sleeper goby from an LFS. RG1 (zygote2k) helps me with my tank and said he thought the kole tang had ich. Thinks maybe it came from the goby but who knows. I could not see anything so watched it carefully ever since then. It was eating a lot and looked fine to me even up until the morning of the day it died. When that died then I went to observe all the others and noticed the blonde naso and coral beauty were missing. Couple people including RG1 have told me there is a lot of ich and velvet coming out of several wholesalers in LA. I don't QT so I guess this is all my fault but it sucks. I got a QT yesterday and am setting it up this weekend. More to learn for me.

 

Please do not rely on your eyes to manage ich, flukes or other parasites. These parasites can reside in places where you can not see such as inside the gills.

[Jan]

Somethings going around. Strange thing is I haven't introduced anything new in a couple of months. I'm surprised by this recent issue. Yesterday I lost my pyramid butterfly in addition to the Genicanthus M angel. The chromis looks fine. Both the butterfyl and angel appeard to have ich and velvet at the same time; white spots with a graish white slime coat and cloudy eyes. Despite my best efforts to treat with hyposalinity and ich attack (formalin) they've both died. I've not seen anything like this. All the fish in my DT are fine. These 3 fish came out of my DT. I took them out because their fins appeared frayed. I isolated them just in case another fish was nipping at them and decided to treat with broad spectrum antibiotic for fin rot. The fins were growing in nicely and then all of a sudden, overnight, they developed a mucous coat and a dusting of white granular looking spots. Hours later the angel stopped eating and became lethargic. After treating with formalin the spots were gon from the butterfly. then two days later the butterfly developed the mucous coat and spots again. Both very healthy fish died within 24 hours of signs. the second fish during active treatment. What could have stressed them in QT to cause the outbreak? If it was velvet where did it come from? As I mentioned in my earlier post I know that once they get ich it may manifest again when stressed, but does this happen with velvet too?

[Jan]

Gobies and jawfish are tough to deal with in that they are highly resistant to disease but they can harbor disease without signs or symptoms. They won’t show signs right away because they don’t have scales. They can pass disease on to other fish. Until the disease takes over in their system and they show signs we have nothing to rely on other than QT and observation. I've read that for jawfish we should not QT because it stresses them too much. I'll treat with prazi for deworming, FW dips with meth blue and hypo salinity at 1.010 as standard protocol at this point. I've lost too many fish to velvet at one time and don’t want to deal with that nightmare again.

 

Once we've lost a significant amount of livestock we tend to take a different approach regarding QT. Fish harbor all kinds of things we can't see. When stressed disease will surface. It's better it surface in isolation than in our DT's.

 

I'm sorry for your losses and glad that you've decided to set up QT.

 

 

For what it is worth, I had 3 fish die since Dec 30. A yellow eyed kole, blonde naso, and a coral beauty. It all started about 3 weeks ago when I got a diamond sleeper goby from an LFS. RG1 (zygote2k) helps me with my tank and said he thought the kole tang had ich. Thinks maybe it came from the goby but who knows. I could not see anything so watched it carefully ever since then. It was eating a lot and looked fine to me even up until the morning of the day it died. When that died then I went to observe all the others and noticed the blonde naso and coral beauty were missing. Couple people including RG1 have told me there is a lot of ich and velvet coming out of several wholesalers in LA. I don't QT so I guess this is all my fault but it sucks. I got a QT yesterday and am setting it up this weekend. More to learn for me.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Jans Natural Reef Foods

[Demeat50]

Thanks. One more fish died. My little clown. And it's bigger partner looks really sick too now have not been able to set up the QT yet. Don't even know how. Is there anything I should dose the whole tank with or just let this run its course? Same thing is happening to me as you. Fish look fine and then in less than a day are dead. Any advice on what to do without a QT would be much appreciated.

[zygote2k]

FWIW, I had another client lose 75% of his fish within a few days. We managed to save the Purple Tang and it lived in QT for 60 days. Upon re-introduction to the DT, it came down with ich/velvet and died in 3 days. The tank has now been running fishless for 2.5 months and will continue to be fishless for the next 90 days in hopes that the ich/velvet lifecycle will be broken.

 

We have been QTing our fish in a dedicated system for one month of observation and have had very little fish death since.

We have yet to treat any fish with any meds. Prior to this method, we experienced more than a 50% loss. We also stopped buying from all LFS's and only buy from 2 wholesalers.

 

As far as cross contamination in Jan's system goes, make sure that there are dedicated items/equipment for both systems.

Make sure you sterilize your hands after working in the DT.

[Jan]

I suspect your issue is different in that you didn't Qt your fish and the disease is taking out the weaker ones first. In my case I've not introduced any new fish recently. this is out of left field.

 

The only advice I have for you at this point is to take the rest of the fish out of your DT when you set up a QT. Observe and treat accordingly. Let your main display go without fish for at least 8 weeks. Continue to do water changes while there are no ifsh in your DT. Then when you get new fish make sure you QT.

 

Thanks. One more fish died. My little clown. And it's bigger partner looks really sick too now have not been able to set up the QT yet. Don't even know how. Is there anything I should dose the whole tank with or just let this run its course? Same thing is happening to me as you. Fish look fine and then in less than a day are dead. Any advice on what to do without a QT would be much appreciated.

[davelin315]

As was already stated, formalin is pretty rough on a fish and can cause a relatively weak immune system to collapse and kill the fish. Half the time removing a sick fish is the worst thing you can do, but again, that's only half the time. Before I wiped out my tank with velvet, ich was in the tank for years and periodic flare ups went away without intervention. They say a tank can beat ich with no new additions after a couple of years without adding any new fish but any new additions starts the clock over again, regardless of whether you qt the new fish or not, it's the new blood being added. My tank has been fallow for months and now I'm ready to start over by eliminating my pyramid snail infestation with a couple of small triggers. That said, not sure how I'll qt the new little eradicators as I want my tank to eventually go back to a reef. The new fish will add disease to the tank unless I treat proactively, but I may simply watch them in qt beforehand rather than run a hospital tank (or perhaps I'll persuade someone to treat for me before I take them home).