Did anyone see the climate-gate news

[Aquariareview]

Just got back from Israel (diving in the red sea) and Europe and mid east is buzzing with news of major climate scandle.

 

Scientific progress depends on accurate and complete data. It also relies on replication. The past couple of days have uncovered some shocking revelations about the practices that pass as sound science about climate change and have been based on lies.

 

It turn out that the main team of science jockeys, the guys who came up with the model that the UN used to come up with the Global warming concept HAVE BEEN COOKING THE NUMBERS. It was announced Thursday afternoon that computer hackers had obtained 160 megabytes of e-mails from the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA) in England. Those e-mails involved communication among many scientific researchers and policy advocates with similar ideological positions all across the world. Those purported authorities were brazenly discussing the destruction and hiding of data that did not support global-warming claims.

 

In some of the emails published they talk about how they cant explain the cooling that defies their theory so they must just suppress the data.

 

If you say I saw the data that shows the warming trend in Climate Research journal, Guess what these Guys ran that Journal. They are in the process of losing all grants and positions.

 

Congress has called for investigation, and the British papers are calling Global Warming the greatest hoax in history.

Read the articles below.

 

Climategate: 'Greatest scandal in modern science'...

Scientist in climate change 'cover-up' storm told to quit...

Call for Congressional investigation...

Paper: Junk science exposed among climate-change believers...

Edited November 26, 2009 by Aquariareview

[mogurnda]

In some of the emails published they talk about how they cant explain the cooling that defies their theory so they must just suppress the data.

If there are such darning quotes, please post them. There were discussions of deleting emails, but not because of data manipulation. Further, most of those contacted ignored the suggestion.

 

There is a very, very large amount of evidence coming out in the journals every day that global warming is happening, and that it's worse than we thought. The increase in sea temperatures is one of the reasons corals are suffering worldwide. Not to mention acidification from increased atmospheric CO2. one can debate the contribution of human activity to the change in climate, but it seems smarter to err on the side of caution.

 

On top of that, there's no good reason to not reduce the amount of fossil fuel we are burning.

[zygote2k]

this is a very slippery slope we are going down. on one hand we need to reduce atmospheric pollution and reduce fossil fuel consumption. the other hand wants to say that c02 is bad and the carbon emissions are a direct source of it. they want to put a tax on the use of carbon in our day to day lives. this is another way to seperate us from our hard earned money. money as we know it will soon disappear because of the carbon footprint that it makes- we'll be using all electronic currency. our hobbies will suffer greatly- look how much plastic the aquarium industry uses- all of it will be heavily carbon taxed.

[lanman]

Wow... now that you've sent me off on an hour-long chase - this is starting to look pretty bad. I particularly like the Fox News video. Which can be seen on this page: http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/clim...ts-reveal-fraud or do a search on 'climategate: fox rips'. Talk about 'warming' ... see a global-warming advocate's temperature rise exponentially!

 

Apparently pro-global-warming-as-the-cause-for-everything scienists 'took over' all of the so-called peer reviewed journals, so they could determine exactly which 'peers' would review what. These folks are very angry because one of the journals has multiple editors, and one of them allows data to be published that don't fit their needs. Another is complaining about the fact they can't seem to come up with a reason there has been no warming for the last 10 years, when there should have been. Then, we have New Zealand, where someone published a graph with the 'original' temperature data used for the officially published graphs - which shows the data has been seriously manipulated - to show a rise in temperature of over 1 degree, when the original data shows 0.06 degree. Early readings were lowered, more recent readings were raised. Without explanation.

 

Is 'global warming' about to implode?

 

bob

[Hoyden]

I try to stay out of these types of discussions on here, but I'd suggest that before everyone charges too far down this road that you also check out Real Climate for another view of what is happening here:)

 

Jackie

Edited November 26, 2009 by Hoyden

[lanman]

I try to stay out of these types of discussions on here, but I'd suggest that before everyone charges too far down this road that you also check out Real Climate for another view of what is happening here:)

 

Jackie

 

Yes - a lot of stuff will be taken completely out of context. Yes - people writing e-mails to one another do NOT anticipate that they will be 'peer-reviewed'. But they are a very good insight into the 'feelings' and perhaps 'goals' of the writers. Here is a quote from one of the purported stolen e-mails:

 

 

[OUsnakebyte]

This is like the "great evolution debate" (as if there really is one). Every so often, some religious nut(s) will come out with "evidence" that all the evolutionists are wrong, the whole theory is out of whack and everything we have been spouting for all these years must now be reversed. Variations on the theme exist, but the message remains the same. Sometimes they will even manage to get a quote (usually taken out of context) from some renowned evolutionist to "support" the claim. Meanwhile, we all continue on our paths...

 

I continue to draw comparisons to the anthropogenic climate change debate. Every now and then something like this happens, and all of a sudden - everyone is wrong. The Earth is just fine, and humans have absolutely nothing to do with the destruction of the planet. We are just one more species living here affecting nothing, even though we have steadily managed to increase our population size to the billions - something no other mega-vertebrate has ever achieved.

 

As with evolution, the underlying principles are easy to see. We are taking the fossil fuel that was laid down during the Carboniferous and releasing it into the atmosphere. If it were not for the oceans soaking up the vast majority (and their terrestrial counterparts, the rainforests), we would be in much more trouble. Of course, this is coming at a great price - the pH of the oceans dropping.

 

There is a very real and natural process for this to happen - volcanoes. Of course, volcanoes grow and then die out. The human population has become a volcano that has not stopped erupting since the Industrial Revolution and has grown exponentially in strength.

 

Continue to debate it and find scandals along the way. Every coral reef biologist I know understands the process, and we know why the reefs we love so much are dying - and will continue to die. Like the evolutionary biologists, we will continue our work, and we know what we are up against.

 

 

Cheers

Mike

Edited November 26, 2009 by OUsnakebyte

[lanman]

This is like the "great evolution debate" (as if there really is one). Every so often, some religious nut(s) will come out with "evidence" that all the evolutionists are wrong, the whole theory is out of whack and everything we have been spouting for all these years must now be reversed. Variations on the theme exist, but the message remains the same. Sometimes they will even manage to get a quote (usually taken out of context) from some renowned evolutionist to "support" the claim. Meanwhile, we all continue on our paths...

 

I continue to draw comparisons to the anthropogenic climate change debate. Every now and then something like this happens, and all of a sudden - everyone is wrong. The Earth is just fine, and humans have absolutely nothing to do with the destruction of the planet. We are just one more species living here affecting nothing, even though we have steadily managed to increase our population size to the billions - something no other mega-vertebrate has ever achieved.

 

As with evolution, the underlying principles are easy to see. We are taking the fossil fuel that was laid down during the Carboniferous and releasing it into the atmosphere. If it were not for the oceans soaking up the vast majority (and their terrestrial counterparts, the rainforests), we would be in much more trouble. Of course, this is coming at a great price - the pH of the oceans dropping.

 

There is a very real and natural process for this to happen - volcanoes. Of course, volcanoes grow and then die out. The human population has become a volcano that has not stopped erupting since the Industrial Revolution and has grown exponentially in strength.

 

Continue to debate it and find scandals along the way. Every coral reef biologist I know understands the process, and we know why the reefs we love so much are dying - and will continue to die. Like the evolutionary biologists, we will continue our work, and we know what we are up against.

 

 

Cheers

Mike

Unfortunately, you are mixing apples and oranges. Yes - we humans are destroying our planet. But, IMHO, we are not doing it with our carbon dioxide emissions. I think 'global warming' is a red herring, taking us away from the very real problems that we are creating, and CAN do something about.

 

I'm old, you see... I remember the 50's, when the same scientific community was telling us to prepare for the 'little ice age'. I remember the 60's/70's when they were telling us that by 2010 (stand by for cataclysm in just over a month!) the hole in the ozone layer would be so big that human beings would suffer serious mutations, and much of the population would die out. Are there too many of us, using too many resources, causing too much pollution for this big blue marble to handle - yes! I can agree with everything you're saying. I just can't link it to a human-caused greenhouse effect.

 

bob

[L8 2 RISE]

Unfortunately, you are mixing apples and oranges. Yes - we humans are destroying our planet. But, IMHO, we are not doing it with our carbon dioxide emissions. I think 'global warming' is a red herring, taking us away from the very real problems that we are creating, and CAN do something about.

 

I'm old, you see... I remember the 50's, when the same scientific community was telling us to prepare for the 'little ice age'. I remember the 60's/70's when they were telling us that by 2010 (stand by for cataclysm in just over a month!) the hole in the ozone layer would be so big that human beings would suffer serious mutations, and much of the population would die out. Are there too many of us, using too many resources, causing too much pollution for this big blue marble to handle - yes! I can agree with everything you're saying. I just can't link it to a human-caused greenhouse effect.

 

bob

 

+1 million.

 

My Dad's a meteorologist, and he's trying to resist saying "I told you so" . I personally am going to wait until we hear more to pass judgement, but I've done a lot of looking into the whole climate change thing and simply don't see how all of the numbers add up that say that humans are causing global warming. Now it appears that the Earth might not even be warming... We'll see what comes of all this.

[Aquariareview]

see below

Edited November 26, 2009 by Aquariareview

[Aquariareview]

Jack I read the whole 160 gig of email and the web site you posted is part of the group that is being laughed at. There is email from their main people asking each other why the real trend is cooler (for years and years) and reply from peers telling them to rig the numbers so as to not lose control of the debate.

 

Quote from one of the stories "Professor Phil Jones, the head of the Climate Research Unit, and professor Michael E. Mann at Pennsylvania State University, who has been an important scientist in the climate debate, have come under particular scrutiny. Among his e-mails, Mr. Jones talked to Mr. Mann about the "trick of adding in the real temps to each series ... to hide the decline [in temperature]."

 

Mr. Mann admitted that he was party to this conversation and lamely explained to the New York Times that "scientists often used the word 'trick' to refer to a good way to solve a problem 'and not something secret.' " Though the liberal New York newspaper apparently buys this explanation, we have seen no benign explanation that justifies efforts by researchers to skew data on so-called global-warming "to hide the decline." Given the controversies over the accuracy of Mr. Mann's past research, it is surprising his current explanations are accepted so readily.

 

All of the data belongs to British funded centers and was supposed to be released under their freedom of info act and they even discuss how to avoid releasing it as it will destroy they cause. their new talking point is these documents were stolen so are out of context,, read a few and then make up your mind. "

 

I believe we need to care for the planet but this destroys the credibility of the sky is falling crowd. however we will see people fight back against this truth because they are invested either politically or their mass investment in the economy of low impact products. If we stop buying cfl bulbs more than 100,000 people will be out of work(but we forget they impact massive mercury in the landfills, or the massive buy of hybrid autos that even the most ardent global warming advocates admit cause a greater carbon footprint than driving a hummer (research sudbury Ont Can) by the time they mine the nickel, ship to plants in Japan, make batteries, then dispose of them their is no saving.

 

Hiding data, destroying information, and doctoring their results raise real questions about many American academics at universities such as Pennsylvania State University, University of Arizona, and University of Massachusetts at Amherst. When at all possible available data must be shared.

 

Usually academic research is completely ignored by the general public but in this case proposed regulations, costing trillions of dollars, are being based on many of these claimed research results. This coordinated campaign to hide scientific information appears unprecedented.

 

SIDE NOTE NASA is defying a court order to release uncorrected climate data to a major magazine. - internal discussions about NASA's quiet correction of its false historical U.S. temperature records after two Canadian researchers discovered a key statistical error, specifically discussion about whether and why to correct certain records, how to do so, the impact or wisdom or potential (or real) fallout therefrom or reaction to doing so (requested August 2007);

 

I love the reefs, I want to do the right things, who do I listen to. It has to be someone who uses science that they can replicate over and over and that they don't have to hide some of the results to prove their point.

 

Now it looks like the flat earth group is the people who refuse to look at new evidence that suggest we may have been lied to all along.

[Mountaineer]

Makes you wonder who was causing all of the "global warming" after the "ice age".

[GaryL]

Makes you wonder who was causing all of the "global warming" after the "ice age".

 

the same guy that invented the internet?

 

i think there is a lot of money or power to be made off of scare tactics in every circle in life, and it is sad that we as charitable caring people fall for some of the schemes whether they are real or not.

 

my $0.02

[OUsnakebyte]

Might as well make it +10 Billion, b/c that is where our population is headed...

 

What causes corals to bleach? Primarily increasing temperatures, though there are other stressors that can cause this (sedimentation, shading by algae). Bump up the heater on your tank(s) and see what happens. We have seen ever-increasing bouts of bleaching events, so much so that there is hardly any coral left in the Caribbean - what is causing it? The over-abundance of some other mega-vertebrate dominating the planet that has no predatory check?

 

 

Makes you wonder who was causing all of the "global warming" after the "ice age".

 

It's been a looooong time since I had that class, but if I recall correctly (and I might not - again, it's been a while), it was the spawning of the gulf stream due to the formation of the isthmus of the panama via sediment build-up.

 

 

Are there other variables at work here? Without a doubt. In fact, if it were just increasing temps, my gut feeling is that the corals might very well adapt, but the myriad of other anthropogenic stressors pounding them is too much for them to handle.

 

Cheers

Mike

[ctenophore]

Mike makes a good point here that I think many of you are missing. Whether global warming via excess CO2 is "real" or not, the other factors destroying our fragile ecosystems are very much so. Of all people in the world, I think us reef keepers should be able to understand this the easiest, as we see the effects of multiple stressors so readily in our aquaria. The solutions to pollution/runoff, ocean acidification, natural resource overexploitation, etc are generally the same as for CO2 emissions & global warming- use less and be more efficient with what you have. Who cares about the banter concerning 1C or .06C average temperature increase as an indicator of global warming. Dead reefs are a much more obvious and measurable result of our impact on the global environment, and speak loud and clear that our actions as a species are deleterious to the rest of the planet's life.

[L8 2 RISE]

... The problem is, that's not the point, the point is, as this article states very well all the way back in 2007: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard...st-scam-history, Scientists lied, politicians saw a way to get power and money, the media saw this too, and gullible citizens believed and threw money at it, and now, the citizens have found out about it, and probably will have trouble accepting it. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW will admit openly and say that humans are definitely causing tremendous damage to the environment, so I don't see any rhyme nor reason to try to debate or argue that point across, there's no need to, we all know it. What we need to realize from all this is that we're throwing our money and attention in the wrong direction. Hopefully it will also make people less gullible and willing to do more independent research before jumping to conclusions (I know, very wishfull thinking). The point to this whole thread and the whole discussion in the media about all this is that we may have been lied to and the "biggest hoax in human history" may have just been revealed (BTW, that quote was from 2007). It's ridiculous that the politicians, media, and citizens that decided to go down this path, or fall into this trap of "impending doom by global warming" will try and hide behind the vale of, "oh, well, it doesn't matter because humans are doing damage from pollution and other stuff" and steer the heat away from themselves and will get away with it. It's time for some key players in this to face the crowds and get what they deserve.

[OUsnakebyte]

one can debate the contribution of human activity to the change in climate, but it seems smarter to err on the side of caution.

 

On top of that, there's no good reason to not reduce the amount of fossil fuel we are burning.

 

^^This

 

The solutions to pollution/runoff, ocean acidification, natural resource overexploitation, etc are generally the same as for CO2 emissions & global warming- use less and be more efficient with what you have. Who cares about the banter concerning 1C or .06C average temperature increase as an indicator of global warming.

 

^^and this.

 

These guys said it much simpler than I did (in my typically long-winded fashion).

 

Cheers

Mike

[Mountaineer]

Just to add more confusion, I sat through a very good presentation by a gentleman that studied as part of his masters thesis the drop in pH around many of the worlds reefs. He concluded that this was due to the increase in carbon emissions. This carries much more weight with me than increasing temperatures.

 

I do appreciate the point that pollution, overpopulation, etc. is damaging to the earth and may be changing the ecosystem. I must agree however, with the OP that this is about intentionally misreporting of science and may in the end result in a lack of faith and mistrust from those that are reporting the data in the future. Just like the story of the "Boy Who Cried Wolf", when you intentionally misrepresent the facts, people will not listen even when you are telling the truth.

 

The irony is that Al Gore chose to call this "Truth" Inconvenient". Sound's like it may have been a little TOO inconvenient.

[Aquariareview]

The point of starting this thread was not to deny that we are causing damage but to bring conversation on what is real and what is hoax.

 

Carbon dioxide (chemical formula CO2) is a chemical compound composed of two oxygen atoms covalently bonded to a single carbon atom. Carbon dioxide is used by plants during photosynthesis to make sugars. I used to own a greenhouse and we pumped CO2 into the air to increase growth, the more we added the more oxygen we had in the air.

 

In my planted tanks we add it to increase plant growth

 

NOAA states in their May 2008 "State of the science fact sheet for ocean acidification" that:

"The oceans have absorbed about 50% of the carbon dioxide (CO2) released from the burning of fossil fuels, resulting in chemical reactions that lower ocean pH. This has caused an increase in hydrogen ion (acidity) of about 30% since the start of the industrial age through a process known as “ocean acidification.” A growing number of studies have demonstrated adverse impacts on marine organisms, including: the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Climate Change 2007: Synthesis Report.

 

WOW that is one of the major orgs that have tricked the DATA. So NOAA was lied to or they knowingly gave us the wrong info.

 

Do we know if anything we thought of as science is true, The whole concept is now flawed because all of the science is from people who have "tricked the data"

 

At this point everything we thought we knew is suspect,, have any of us spent 30 years gathering our own data from satellites we control, do any of us have a network of undersea sensors that we have been monitoring. every piece of our data come groups that are now know to have fed us non-truth (lies). For all we know toothpaste or prep H or eating at Taco Bell could be the problem,, WE JUST DON"T KNOW. None of us can say we do because we have all been fed flawed data

 

Mike I agree that to err on the side of caution is a good path,, but we might not even know what the path is. what if they say we need to stop breeding so we must all be fixed. maybe we must not allow people to have health care past 65, Or we must all live in 600 sq ft home with no AC. All of these things would reduce human impact but is this a path we want to have forced on us. The people who have told us what is real are suspect so do we know what we must really do?

 

I think it's time to start over with studies done by people (who don'e lie) who will do open studies and show us the data they base their conclusions on. Then we can start down a real path to Taking care of this planet in a way that is real.

 

read this article

Edited November 27, 2009 by Aquariareview

[ctenophore]

A freshwater tank full of plants is not a coral reef. Neither is a greenhouse full of plants. Add CO2 to your reef aquarium, drive the pH down to 7.5 or 7.6 and let us know how it does. Basic high-school chemistry shows that increasing CO2 in a calcium-carbonate equilibrium reaction will increase acidity and cause dissolution of solid CaCO3. Corals can't build skeletons at low pH, and diatoms etc will dissolve. Wish all you want that CO2 emissions are good for reefs, but it won't make it so. Coral reefs will become algal reefs, like 90%+ of the Caribbean has already become. Doesn't take a NOAA scientist to show that- just go snorkeling in Bonaire or the Keys and compare what you see to photos from 30 years ago if you think the scientists are lying to you.

[Aquariareview]

I understand and agree but the point is we don't know the real cause, In the keys they put marked isotopes in a septic tank and could measure them in nearby reefs in 72 hours. hmmm,, many reef are in areas of low income that dump raw sewage in the sea.

we don't know the cause of the low PH and I want to do something that really works and as log as we buy the current info we might not be doing something that will really help.

 

By the way I live in a home In WA State that is solar and wind powered I draw water from a deep well (I am a lifetime member of WAMAS Because I used to live in N VA and was webmaster for this site). I am not a right wing nut but I love this planet and like all of us that do I have been betrayed by the very people we thought were trying to help

[OUsnakebyte]

Please tell me what, then, do we attribute the increased thermal-induced bleaching events seen in the Caribbean - and other parts of the world - to? If not increasing ocean temperatures, then what? Is this the 'ol "normal process of things"? Or, if it is indeed increasing temperatures, then am I supposed to link it to something else?

[mogurnda]

I am not a right wing nut but I love this planet and like all of us that do I have been betrayed by the very people we thought were trying to help

Let's be honest, Nathan. You have been posting anti-climate change material on this site for years, and clearly made up your mind a long time ago. In a field as big as that, there will certainly be some slip ups, and possibly downright misconduct. It seems unlikely that the emails exchanged by climate change skeptics could stand the kind of scrutiny that those of the scientists are.

 

I find it frustrating when people decide on an issue, then cherry pick data to support their opinions, rather than look at the whole field. If my area of study were subject to this kind of harrassment, I would go into telemarketing.

[lanman]

Please tell me what, then, do we attribute the increased thermal-induced bleaching events seen in the Caribbean - and other parts of the world - to? If not increasing ocean temperatures, then what? Is this the 'ol "normal process of things"? Or, if it is indeed increasing temperatures, then am I supposed to link it to something else?

 

Temperatures may very well be increasing. It may very well be a normal occurrence. Humans may have something to do with it. But the data I've been able to find indicates that Human-produced greenhouse gases at a maximum can only be a VERY small factor. i.e. - if we were all to commit suicide tomorrow it would only have a negligible effect on any increased temperatures caused by greenhouse gas emissions. I wish it were otherwise. I wish we could all become 'carbon-neutral', or even carbon-negative, and save the earth.

 

Ever-increasing populations, with their pollutions of every sort are almost certainly causing grave harm to our little planet. I'm even reasonably sure we have a HEAVY hand in killing off the coral reefs. I just don't think we're doing it with our excess carbon dioxide. If these scientists have been purposely mis-leading us to believe that is the solution, simply because that's where the grants and money are - then they bear a lot of responsibility when we find out much too late that we should have been concentrating on something else - something that we COULD do.

 

What's wrong with this picture...

 

bob

Edited November 28, 2009 by lanman

[Aquariareview]

I have posted studies that showed Junk science proof and now it seems they were all correct. This current scandal is so major that already the rest of the science community is pulling away from Copenhagen (more than 25 percent of attendees have canceled in the last 3 days)

 

I believe something is wrong with what we are doing to the planet and I want to know how to make changes that are real.

I have put major cash into a low footprint lifestyle, solar & wind powered house, and being careful with all of the things that matter what if its all wrong.

 

I am not really anti AGW I am anti misinformation. we have watched any study group that disagreed be shut out of all publications for twenty years or more. I agree with lanman I want to know what is the factor so we don't keep doing what is not the real. if we don't then someday we are going to discover that it is something else and it will be to late.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Aquariareview