Guest baygl September 16, 2003 September 16, 2003 Hello - I have a 65 gallon tank that I set up in June of this year. I've read tons of books and took my time building it up to where I now have 7 fish that seem to be doing okay. One consistent issue I've been having, though, is that the pH is at 7.7. Even before I added any fish. Over time, I've tried to remedy this situation by adding SeaChem's Marine buffer and by adding lime water. With the former, the pH went up a bit but then came back down. I recently made a tank of salt water to use for water changes (with heater to keep it at 75 degrees F and an air stone) and tested that water to find the pH is the same (7.7). So, no wonder! The salt mix I use is Aquarium Systems' Instant Ocean and I mix 1/2 cup per gallon. And I'm using a Salifert pH test kit. Oh, and I have an RO/DI unit for my source water which tested as having no total dissolved solids. Anybody else have the same problem or have any ideas on how to deal with this issue? Also, I'd like to get another pH test kit to check against. Any suggestions? I'd like one with better resolution -- Salifert's scale is ... 7.7, 8, 8.3 ... Thank you!
ReefMon September 16, 2003 September 16, 2003 Welcome to the board! Personally I don't put much faith in the chemical pH tests. It would be difficult to have fresh IO with a pH that low. Where are you located, maybe someone is in your area that can check it with a pH meter. Happy Reefing! Glenn R
Larry Grenier September 16, 2003 September 16, 2003 Correct me if I'm wrong folks.... It's difficult to maintain pH when alkalinity is too low so, you mmight want to try using Seachem's Reef Builder which is for raising and maintaining alkalinity along with your Marine Buffer which is supposed to maintain pH and alkalinity.
Guest tgallo September 16, 2003 September 16, 2003 i agree larry, check the alk level. also get another test kit or a electronic ph meter, they come in handy anyway for the long run.
Guest baygl September 17, 2003 September 17, 2003 Hi - Thank you for the welcome. I'm liking this WAMAS group, web site and forum! I've had a blast so far with my tank and the folks where I get my livestock at the Marine Scene in Herndon have done everything to set me up, but it is great to have access to so many hobbyists' ideas and experiences. Hopefully I'll be able to help someone out here some day. :-) Yes, I've been thinking about bringing a water sample in to the Marine Scene to see if they'll check the pH for me. Anybody else in the Herndon area with a pH meter? I believe my alkalinity is not too low. It was ~9 dKH or 3 meq/L back when I first started to add the buffer to increase the pH. Now it is at ~15.4 dKH or 5.5 meq/L and I'm guessing the increase is due to the periodic addition of buffer to increase the pH. The alkalinity of the freshly made salt water in my empty tank is 11.8 dKH or 4.23 meq/L. Thanks again!
JMsAquarium September 17, 2003 September 17, 2003 The staff at Marine Scene will gladly test your water. However, they will do it only during week days, not on weekends. Keep us informed on how it goes.
AquariaUSA September 17, 2003 September 17, 2003 Hi Baygl, Definitely start using the Seachem Reef Builder vs. the Marine Buffer (which is really for marine fish systems). What is your calcium level reading? pH titration kits are not the best out there, although the Salifert is pretty consistent. You can get a fair pH pen for under $30-40, although you will need to calibrate them frequently. If everything is doing well in your system, don't worry about the lower reading on the pH. Could be the kits, could be excess C02, etc. Be sure to cross check the pH with another kit or at a lfs. Testing before lights come on, and just after a full photoperiod should give you a pH range also. How many lbs. of rock (what type) do you have in the system? Refugium? Deep sand bed in main tank (what kind of substrate)?
Guest baygl September 17, 2003 September 17, 2003 Hello - My calcium level is low -- I don't have my log book with me but it seems like it was about 2/3rds of what it should be. I added the kalkwasser (sp?) solution, following the directions carefully, when I first discovered this low level. Since they are all related, I thought it would help with the pH too. But it didn't and if I understand correctly, a lower pH will cause the calcium to come out of solution. So I decided to try to address the chronic pH problem first then try to do something about the calcium if it was still low. Especially since handling and adding the kalkwasser stuff is such an ordeal. I will get the reef builder, a pH pen, and lots of calibration solution. :-) I think I ended up with around 90 pounds of two different types of rock -- will have to look at my log book to get the types. The substrate is CaribSea Seaflor Super Reef Sand. I believe it is fairly deep as I put the whole 40 lb bag in it so in some spots I'd say it is ~4 inches and in others it is ~2 inches. I have a 15 gal tank sump with a Turboflotor protein skimmer in it. Don't want to jinx myself but thus far, all the creatures in the tank seem pretty happy. Everybody is eating and seem to be getting along nicely. Well, I lost a Bengaii Cardinalfish which completely disappeared three weeks ago within a week of being introduced to the tank. It hadn't previously looked ill and the other fishes introduced at the same time are still there so that one is a mystery. Gail
AquariaUSA September 17, 2003 September 17, 2003 How fast are you dosing the kalkwasser solution? Sometimes if you go to fast it can really do some damage to your calcium, kh, and ph levels. Might want to try some of Seachem's Reef Advantage Calcium for it is a little easier to use and dose compared to kalkwasser, and is not a caustic agent. This product works good with their Reef Builder. As for the Bengaii do you know if it was a wild caught or tank bred specimen? Where did you get it? How long was it in the dealers tank (if they told ya)? The tank bred are generally tough as nails, the wild are fairly delicate (if they last past 2-3 months, you should have them for years).
Guest baygl September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Hi AquariaUSA - I added 1 tsp of the Kent Marine's Kallkwasser powder in RO/DI water according to the directions on the jar -- I don't recall the rate but I did it in an evening. The next day, the pH hadn't changed (I wrote it down as 7.7 - 8) from two days prior and the alkalinity and calcium levels were only slightly higher (9.45 dKH or 3.37 meq/L alkalinity and 300 ppm Ca2+ up from 9 dKH and 260 ppm Ca2+). I will get the Reef Advantage Calcium as the warnings on the kalkwasser scared me off from using that stuff. I'm afraid to say I don't know if the Bengaii was tank raised or wild caught. I got it from Marine Scene where I've seen a few labels for tank raised fish and it wasn't labeled tank raised. I don't know how long they had it but it is my understanding that it had to have been there through their quarantine period. Back to a previous question about my live rock -- I have 60 lbs of Tonga Ridge, 17 lbs of aquacultured atlantic and 32 lbs of Figi live rock. Gail
Guest chop1 September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 baygl, I'm in Herndon as well and have a ph monitor. Let me know if you still need to check your ph. email me at: chopstick1@cox.net
AquariaUSA September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Hi Gail, I think a few weeks ago someone got kalk in their eyes (ouch!!!) and posted it on the board. It is a caustic agent, so pretty dangerous to ingest, rub on your skin, etc. If you got a slight rise in the alkalinity and the calcium from a days use that is fine, just wondering why your pH readings were so low to begin with??? I think once you get ahold of the RAC (Reef Advantage Calcium) you might find raising both levels pretty easy. Add chemicals...wait at least 3-4 days to test, for it takes a few days to really show a correct reading/otherwise you will be overdosing. If you can't find RAC locally, send me an email for I am in VA on Tuesdays and Thursdays (it's cheap stuff, so I don't mind getting you a 250g for $5). On another note... true/effective quarantine processes should be far longer than a few days to a week. Reason? Any fish that is not DOA can hang in there for a few days swimming about a tank, eating a little, etc. Some think that if a fish does not have "ick" or visible signs of distress or disease that they must be "ok." However, after many years working with various retailers, a wholesaler/biologist, aquariums, and with our own client stock we really believe in full quarantine, so as not to infect a successful system with a new addition we have only had for a week. Those that put their fish through a serious quarantine process (not to knock MS, for they can't afford to go longer with fish I presume after Toms post, and most retailers won't even mention quarantine) will attest to this, especially with delicate species like wild caught Kauderns/Bengaii's. Like I mentioned before, if captive bred they are super hardy! but only a few places have them (ORA once in a blue moon, NAIB ~ but hard to get out of them, and some local hobbyists from here to PA/NY). Wild caught Bengaii's are a fish that we kept for not less than 5 weeks to ensure they would not drop dead in a clients tank soon after they were added. Seems like a heck of a long time, but they generally died off due to nutrition (could have been potassium cyanide), stress/ick, or from internal parasites (when scoped). This is one of the many reasons we have decided to forgo bringing them in wild caught, and if you really like them, wait till they are certified captive bred. Only problem here is the wild caught can be obtained for a very, very cheap price, while as the captive bred usually cost 3 to 4 times more than the wcs. Sad thing is I have seen them in retail shops (2 in NC, 1 in FL, and a few around here) for $25-50 and we were told they were wild caught (this is the price I would expect to see for captives). oh well! Don't forget about the corals Fish are great, show lots of movement, but if you take your time you will have the fish you choose after much thought for many years. Setting up a quarantine tank won't hurt either if you buy fish from retailers.
michaelg September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Baygl- see the references on kalkwasser. I believe the Craig bingman articles are linked (published in Aquarium Frontiers- if not they are archived at reefs.org). In a nutshell, kalk is pretty ineffective at raising levels of calcium and alkalinity. In a non-demanding system, it does great at maintaining levels, but they need to be where you want them to start with. Look for a 2 part suppliment such as B-Ionic to give the system a bump. It is easy to add and not screw the balance up (you add equal parts of buffer and calcium). On a side note, what the heck is a bengai cardinalfish? I thought they were Bangaii's ????
Sph2sail September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Baygl, Another strategy, which you may not be ready for, is to build a Nilsen reactor. It is essentially a high performance Kalk dissolver that delivers super saturated Kalk into your sump. We had a club building party and it cost me about $45 to build. I use a Nilsen on my system and it does drive alkalinity and pH up. The idea is that if you pump your RO/DI water for make up of evaporation through the reactor and it dumps into the sump. pH 12 super saturated Kalk (which is CaOH3) into the sump like that may keep levels up for alkalinity and pH. Lots of ways to control the flow of RO/DI through this. I spent a ton on a LifeReef float switch with a solenoid to break the siphon, but I've been VERY happy with that setup. If you have a lot of coral that consumes lots of Ca, this will not be enough. If you are running a system like mine w/light coral loading, it runs great. s
Guest baygl September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Hello - From AqauariaUSA, Sept 18, 2003: If you got a slight rise in the alkalinity and the calcium from a days use that is fine, just wondering why your pH readings were so low to begin with??? I think once you get ahold of the RAC (Reef Advantage Calcium) you might find raising both levels pretty easy. Add chemicals...wait at least 3-4 days to test, for it takes a few days to really show a correct reading/otherwise you will be overdosing. Exactly what I was wondering -- why is my pH so low?! I'm going to have my water tested with a pH meter soon to rule out a test kit issue. But, I have a question about the other additive suggestions. First, Reef Builder was recommended but the product information says it "raises carbonate alkalinity without immediately impacting on pH. With long term use there will be a tendency to stabilize at pH 8.3." Since my pH is low (7.7) and alkalinity high (~15.4 dKH or 5.5 meq/L), do I need to worry about my alkalinity going higher? Am I correct in thinking I should use the Reef Builder first to get the pH and alkalinity set. Then once it seems stable in the desired range, work on the calcium levels using the Reef Advantage Calcium if need be. Right now I have rocks, crabs, snails and fish. I'm planning on adding some macroalgae this week. Tho I'd love to add corals, I don't think I'm ready for that yet. :-) Sph2sail, the home built Kalk doser does sound like a great idea. I'm just getting to the point of learning the limitations of the products on the market in this evolving hobby. I don't think I'm ready to adventure too far from those known quantities at this point, tho. Eventually... Gail
Guest baygl September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Oops, I missed michaelg's response. Would the B-Ionic product help with my pH problem? And does anyone know how that product compares with Seachem's Reef Advantage Calcium which was also recommended? I thought I goofed but did find reference to it as Bengaii Cardinal Fish on the web: http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/f_marini_020799.html.
AquariaUSA September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 I have seen so many common name mispellings of the Bengaii, Bangaii, Kerderns, Kauderns, black & white thingimagigi cardinal urchin hiding fishy B-ionic can work just like the RAC and RB from Seachem. The main difference is that the B-ionic is in liquid form, and the RAC & RB are powdered to make fresh batches (with RO/DI). Not exactly the same chemicals (and sometimes hard to get the manufacturer to say exactly what each consists of) but works the same. Nilsen reactors can help a lot, and kalk over time does raise your KH, pH, and CA, but so does everything else with due time. Nilsen reactor just automates the process for ya! Make sure to work on your CA and KH at the same time to make the system a little more stable.
ReefMon September 18, 2003 September 18, 2003 Please do get a second opinion on your pH test before you start adding a witches brew of chemicals to your tank. You stated earlier that your fresh mixed IO was 7.7 and I've never seen it run less than 8.2-8.4. As for additives, C-Balance/B-Ionic (the liquid types) are IMO much better as it makes it very difficult to upset the ionic balance of your water. HTH Glenn R
Guest baygl September 23, 2003 September 23, 2003 Hello - Thought you might want to know how things turned out. I met with WAMAS member, chop, who offered the use of a pH meter. My water tested as 8.6!!! So, I did a water change and have a pH meter on the way. Sigh... baygl
AquariaUSA September 23, 2003 September 23, 2003 Glad to hear things turned out for the best! Titration kits can't always be perfect Remember to calibrate your pH meter on a regular basis.
Guest cjm033 September 27, 2003 September 27, 2003 for future refernce of anyone who needs it this is a good informative post about helpin up your ph http://thesea.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3950
Sph2sail September 28, 2003 September 28, 2003 Hello - Thought you might want to know how things turned out. I met with WAMAS member, chop, who offered the use of a pH meter. My water tested as 8.6!!! So, I did a water change and have a pH meter on the way. Sigh... baygl What meter are you buying, from where, and for how much? I want one and am curious... steve
ReefMon September 28, 2003 September 28, 2003 The best affordable meter IMO is the Pinpoint: http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchan....inpoint HTH Glenn R
Guest baygl September 29, 2003 September 29, 2003 I got a Pinpoint from MarineDepot: http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idProduct=AM1111 I am happy with it. I also got the 10 packs of calibration fluid as several folks have mentioned the need to calibrate often.
BeltwayBandit October 23, 2003 October 23, 2003 I realize that this is a bit late, but Salifert had a bad batch of pH test kits. IMO you probably had a bad batch. If you want a replacement contact Habib in the Salifert forum on RC and he will send you a replacement. Granted you already have a ph monitor now, but if others are having problems (myself included) check your batch number with Habib and if it is part of the bad batch he will send you a replacement. BB
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