Return Pump Recommendation

[John]

So, I came home tonight to discover that the timer on my 3 month old Coralife Power Center (Single Mechanical Timer) has stopped working, so I moved the dial to the left and the right to override the timer and only the two night-time outlets work...so, after reading several "fixes" online I decided to turn the power off, wait, and turn back on...well, that didn't help, but only made the situation worse...my garbage return pump (hand-me-down Rio 2800ss) failed to restart...I finally got the thing to restart after removing the two rubber shaft caps (similiar shape to the caps used on wire shelving) which must have been binding the shaft. But, as you can imagine the pump is making tons of noise...

 

SO, I need submersible pump recommendations for my 30G setup...similiar numbers to the Rio 2800ss (~750GPH) would be good I suppose...was thinking about plumbing a SCDW so I'm not sure if that would change the numbers...Any recommendations for a new timer/timer power strip for my lights? (I use moonlights, so a day/night mode would be nice)

 

Thanks for any input in advance!

[Boret]

I would stop throwing money at timers and get a controller.

You can get a used AC jr for about $150 and a new Reefkeeper Lite for $99

Not only will it control your lights but also give you readings on pH and temperature, and you can control devices based on those readings, shutting down lights if temp goes too high.

 

I think that a turn over of 700+ gph is too much for your system. Thats pretty much the GPH I use in my 92 gl tank.

Are you using the return as the means for water movement inside the tank? If so then it makes sense, otherwise with 200 to 300 gph you will be doing ok. From what I read the faster you move the water through the sump the less time you give the skimmer to work on the water.

 

If you are still set on keeping the same GPH then I would go for a Mag5/7. Those things are very reliable!!

Edited August 27, 2009 by Boret

[lanman]

Don't use Coralife timers... too many reports of them catching fire. I have a couple of them around here; but won't use them anymore.

 

bob

[Boret]

You can get a used Quiet One 4000 (900gph) for $40 shipped HERE

[Origami]

Those rubber shaft caps you removed sound like the pieces that are used to hold the impeller shaft in place at either end and which keep the impeller centered in the cavity. By removing them, the impeller is banging around inside that cavity, making noise and damaging itself. More likely, what your pump needed was a cleaning to remove build up around the shaft and the inside of the impeller where the shaft goes through. Semi-annual / annual inspection & maintenance should be a regular part of everybody's routine.

 

As for the power strip, dump the Coralife timer. It's got a record of unreliability in this hobby. Instead, use regular heavy duty light timers that you can get at the hardware store. Leave the moonlights on 24 hours a day if you want - they don't eat up that much power and you won't notice them when the other lights are on.

 

If you go with a SCWD, you may want to bump up the Quiet One 4000 that Boret's recommended to a 5000 to compensate for losses through the device.

[tygger]

For submersibles, I've had good experience with Mag Drive pumps.

[Brian Ward]

i'm going to recommend the eheim... quieter and less heat than the mags. a 1260 should do it.

[jnguyen4007]

i'm going to recommend the eheim... quieter and less heat than the mags. a 1260 should do it.

 

+1

 

I'm using that in my tank. It's super quiet and do not generate as much heat as my mag 5 or mag 9.

[tygger]

Definitely eheim if you dont mind spending the extra $.

[John]

Those rubber shaft caps you removed sound like the pieces that are used to hold the impeller shaft in place at either end and which keep the impeller centered in the cavity. By removing them, the impeller is banging around inside that cavity, making noise and damaging itself. More likely, what your pump needed was a cleaning to remove build up around the shaft and the inside of the impeller where the shaft goes through. Semi-annual / annual inspection & maintenance should be a regular part of everybody's routine.

 

 

I understand the caps keep the impeller shaft centered in the cavity, but this pump was used by my buddy for years before he gave me his setup to try reef-keeping and I've only been setup for a 3 months, so the internals were not that dirty. I think the caps are just worn out as I could not get the shaft to spin with them installed...I could replace the internals, but beause of its long-time use combined with the horror stories I've found online about Rio pumps, I will probably replace it. It will definately be a good back-up/emergency pump.

 

 

I think that a turn over of 700+ gph is too much for your system. Thats pretty much the GPH I use in my 92 gl tank.

Are you using the return as the means for water movement inside the tank? If so then it makes sense, otherwise with 200 to 300 gph you will be doing ok. From what I read the faster you move the water through the sump the less time you give the skimmer to work on the water.

 

 

Waterflow has been a concern of mine since I am using a setup my buddy used for years and had success, but wasn't sure it was "right". Plus, he may have been growing SPS or something, where I am trying to grow softies and LPS. I do use the return for water movement, which limits the use of powerheads in the tank...I'm not sure how you would use a return without water movement? Do you have the return pointed straight down into the tank or something? I did put a powerhead in the tank a few weeks ago to hit a dead spot I was having...so I guess I could lower the GPH and still get the water movement in the tank from that powerhead.

[Origami]

I think the caps are just worn out as I could not get the shaft to spin with them installed...I could replace the internals, but beause of its long-time use combined with the horror stories I've found online about Rio pumps, I will probably replace it. It will definately be a good back-up/emergency pump.

 

The shaft does not spin. It remains stationary. The impeller spins around the shaft. If the impeller was not turning around the shaft, it's probably because the bearing surface between it and the impeller became clogged with calcium carbonate precipitate (which precipitates even more on warm surfaces, such as impeller shafts that are heated by a rotating impeller). If you found that your impeller was fused to the shaft, that's probably where the problem is. A good long soak in vinegar along with some manual manipulation may allow you to separate the two and to clean both well enough to get the pump back into working order. Nevertheless, I would keep a back up pump on hand in your case.

 

If you want a good reliable pump, Brian's suggestion of an Eheim 1262 is a good one. You may want to throttle it back some with a ball valve, but it's a good pump. It's pricey, too, though, but it holds it's value as well as any smallish submersible out there.

 

As for the "water movement" issue, what Boret is suggesting is the use of powerheads to augment flow in the tank rather than relying upon using the return for all of your flow. Right now, you probably have somewhere on the order of a 20x turnover running through your sump (I'm assuming here that you have a 5' head on your Rio 2800ss which brings it's rating down to around 600 gph). That's a pretty high turnover rate. Typical numbers I've seen are 5x to 10x the display size through the sump, with the balance of movement coming from powerheads.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Origami2547

[John]

I don't claim to be an engineer, so I was wondering why they would put rubber endcaps on the impeller shaft and expect it to spin...haha...knowing that it is designed to be stanionary makes sense...now I am wondering if there is swelling on the impeller itself because there are some very large stress marks on the impeller...which could have been causing it to bind on the shaft...I would think because of the centripetal force any swelling would move outward, not inward...Nonetheless, I agree the flow is too much and I should get a lower GPH pump. My rise is not quite 5'...measured the tube at 3.5'...the Eheim 1260 seems to be rated at 634 GPH and with a 3.5' rise the GPH seems like it would still be 15x or so...I found this graph, but doesn't help much as the x-axis isn't nicely scaled:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps_eheim_uni...rmation-ap.html

 

A Mag 5 is rated at 500 GPH but with a 3.5' rise is only ~345, which would be like a 11x turnover:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/powerheads_pump...supreme-ap.html

 

So, is less more in this case?

[jnguyen4007]

I don't claim to be an engineer, so I was wondering why they would put rubber endcaps on the impeller shaft and expect it to spin...haha...knowing that it is designed to be stanionary makes sense...now I am wondering if there is swelling on the impeller itself because there are some very large stress marks on the impeller...which could have been causing it to bind on the shaft...I would think because of the centripetal force any swelling would move outward, not inward...Nonetheless, I agree the flow is too much and I should get a lower GPH pump. My rise is not quite 5'...measured the tube at 3.5'...the Eheim 1260 seems to be rated at 634 GPH and with a 3.5' rise the GPH seems like it would still be 15x or so...I found this graph, but doesn't help much as the x-axis isn't nicely scaled:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps_eheim_uni...rmation-ap.html

 

A Mag 5 is rated at 500 GPH but with a 3.5' rise is only ~345, which would be like a 11x turnover:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/powerheads_pump...supreme-ap.html

 

So, is less more in this case?

 

John,

 

The mag 5 is perfectly suitable for a 30 gal tank. I used it in mine for awhile before I switched to the Eheim.

[Origami]

I don't claim to be an engineer, so I was wondering why they would put rubber endcaps on the impeller shaft and expect it to spin...haha...knowing that it is designed to be stanionary makes sense...now I am wondering if there is swelling on the impeller itself because there are some very large stress marks on the impeller...which could have been causing it to bind on the shaft...I would think because of the centripetal force any swelling would move outward, not inward...Nonetheless, I agree the flow is too much and I should get a lower GPH pump. My rise is not quite 5'...measured the tube at 3.5'...the Eheim 1260 seems to be rated at 634 GPH and with a 3.5' rise the GPH seems like it would still be 15x or so...I found this graph, but doesn't help much as the x-axis isn't nicely scaled:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/pumps_eheim_uni...rmation-ap.html

 

A Mag 5 is rated at 500 GPH but with a 3.5' rise is only ~345, which would be like a 11x turnover:

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/powerheads_pump...supreme-ap.html

 

So, is less more in this case?

 

The impeller is designed to be in a wet environment. It won't swell. If it's scored pretty badly, especially if it's got deep grooves, it's probably had debris caught in the impeller cavity which resulted in the scoring. This could have been anything from a snail, a large piece of sand or a piece of shell or rock, or even some dislodged piece of calcium build up that was drawn into the pump. It could also have been caused by operating the pump without the rubber endcaps holding the shaft in place. (That would certainly cause some damage in my opinion. That damage is more likely to result in broad scoring, bruising with possible chunks being taken off the impeller magnet over time from the constant dragging and banging against the impeller cavity, and the heat from friction.) If the impeller is not turning freely on the shaft, then there's probably build up inside the impeller and on the shaft that is binding the two together and which comes from not servicing the pump appropriately.

 

A Mag 5 would work fine; so would a Mag 3 (just with a lower turn over). You'd have to add some powerheads, though, for more in-tank flow.

[John]

Yeah, I don't know the history of the pump other than the past 3 months I've been using it...the impeller isn't groved, just has some plastic stress marks (looks like stretch marks), which may be original...I have no way of knowing...I think I am sold on the mag 5...should have it installed later today...I currently have 3/4" tubing for the return...looks like the Mag 5 pump has a 1/2" outlet...is it recommended I change the tubing to 1/2", or if I use a 1/2" to 3/4" reducer will that effect the flow negatively?

[Origami]

Using a 1/2 to 3/4 adapter will not be a problem. In fact, moving to 1/2 inch tubing would decrease flow.

 

Your Rio may still be salvageable. If you're able to get the impeller and shaft separated and cleaned, you may want to keep it as a back up in case the Mag 5 has problems down-stream. I've found that spare pumps are always nice to have on hand.

[John]

I would like to thank everyone that replied to my thread...I was able to get a Mag 5 and a ReefKeeper 2 this weekend from one of our LFS and a WAMAS member, respectively. The flow is much better in the tank and using the ReefKeeper 2 gives me the piece of mind that everything will remain within a set range while away from the house. (stop laughing)

 

I do see a problem with the ReefKeeper 2 instructions on hooking it up to a PC, so I hope to post my progress on that in a different thread once I get time to install and configure the PC side of things.

 

For those who don't know, the instructions for the ReefKepper 2 say to use RJ11, but clearly point out you need a 3 pair (6 conductor) straight-through cable. Well, this is misleading...RJ11 is a 2 pair "telephone wire" and RJ12 is a 3 pair "telephone wire" but you can't use "telephone wire" as purchased from typical stores because they are crossover cables. That is to say, pinouts 1,2,3,4 would be on one end and the other end would be 4,3,2,1 (RJ11) or the pinouts would be 1,2,3,4,5,6 on one end and 6,5,4,3,2,1 on the other end (RJ12). Thus, you cannot use an RJ11 cable (4 pins) at all, nor can you easily buy a straight-through (patch) cable for RJ12, so I will have to make my own.

 

Disclaimer: I have not tried to set-up the ReefKeeper 2 to the PC yet, but noticed this error in reading the manual only...time will tell.

 

I do plan on salvaging the Rio 2800SS pump as the impeller does not move freely on the shaft...FYI

Edited August 31, 2009 by John