MH lights.... a primer? Suggestions?

[lanman]

I know - SHOCKER! The T-5 guy wants an MH light!

 

I plan to add ONE more tank - another 50-gallon stock tank; and I've decided to try MH lighting. The surface area is about 28" x 48" - and the depth is only a foot or so. The current one is pretty well lighted by 6 39W T5 bulbs, about 8" off the water. Do you think I would get similar results with a single 250W MH light a little further off the water? Recommendations for type of fixture? Yes - I can hang it from the ceiling. I know exactly SQUAT about MH lighting - so thanks for any assistance!

 

bob

[Nate]

I run a 250 watt halide in a double ended luminarc steath pendant with an ice cap electronic ballast. I have this over one of my 40 gallon frags tanks and it seems to do the trick. Only thing I would do differently is use a 14k bulb. I am currently using a 10k for growth purposes but it is so darn ugly.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Nate

[lanman]

I run a 250 watt halide in a double ended luminarc steath pendant with an ice cap electronic ballast. I have this over one of my 40 gallon frags tanks and it seems to do the trick. Only thing I would do differently is use a 14k bulb. I am currently using a 10k for growth purposes but it is so darn ugly.

 

So corals don't grow so well under the 14K and 20K bulbs??

 

bob

[Sikryd]

Bob - I have an Aquamedic silver single 250w pendant and ballast setup if you end up looking for one.

 

I would say that the effective lighting area is more in the 24" x 36" range ~ 14" off the water - with lower light corals going in the last 6" on the other sides.

 

Or you can go the Lumanmax reflector and get a little more I would think.

 

 

Like this

 

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Includes:

 

Edited August 21, 2009 by Sikryd

[Nate]

So corals don't grow so well under the 14K and 20K bulbs??

 

bob

 

Typically the lower the kelvin rating (K) the better growth you get. For example: refugiums do better with 6,500k - 10,00k bulbs because the agale is photosynthetic and feeds off of the lower spectrum. When you start dropping the kelvin you will notice the hue getting more yellow, but as you raise the kelvin, the hue gets more blue. It all depends on your preference. Most people who run 10k halides supplement it with some sort of actinic pc or t5 since it is so yellow. On the flipside, a lot of people like using 20k bulbs because they get the best "pop" effect out of their corals. I personally think 20k bulbs by themselves are too dark. That's why I prefer a median like 14k. Its got the blue color and will help with growth.

 

Here is a Kelvin Scale for a better understanding

 

When it comes to mounting halides. When using large pendant reflectors, I like to keep them about 16 inches above the surface of the water. Again though, it is all preference. When I had reflectors at a foot or closer I noticed substanctial temperature spikes. I would also recommend going open top with any halide. Another thing to consider is that the halide is also capable of heating the entire room it is in...I use fans aimed at the surface of the water to help keep temperatures down. ONE more thing Bob, when adding corals to this new halide tank, start them at the bottom to get them use to the stronger light.

[watson_barrett]

So corals don't grow so well under the 14K and 20K bulbs??

 

bob

i'm certainly no expert but here is my short personnal exp. Have had 2 halide set-ups, one 250 one 400...

depends what you are looking for, max growth or max coral color...

 

they grow just fine w/ 14-20k and will have more pop the in colors but if your intentions are say a frag tang w/ max growth i would say go w/ 10k

 

colors don't take long to really show when you switch to 14-20k.

 

I personnally feel the key w/ halides is the reflectors and dialing in the right height based on that reflector : ) I should become a LB spokes person

 

you could run two 250 LB minis over that...my mini gets a solid 24x24" spread, they say they are good up to 36" but you can tell the light starts to loose focus at about 2'

 

I hear good things about the lumenarc reflectors though as well...

sikryd is right though, w/ halides you raise em up as the saing goes. Mine is at like 16" above water but could use a couple more inches higher i think...

[Nate]

Forgot the most important thing! 10k's will most definitely wash out your coral's colors. All the frags in my 10k tank have almost completely lost their true colors. It takes about a month to loose them and another month to get them back when put back under a higher (k) rated bulb. That is another reason to go with a 14k or higher bulb.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Nate

[steveoutlaw]

Bob -

Frag tank - go with Phoenix 14k bulbs. You get good color out of the corals and still get good growth.

 

Show tank - Well, I've never seen better color than the radiums (20k) give. But, the growth of the corals is slower.

 

For the tank you're talking about, I would go with a Lumenarc or Lumenbright reflector and a 250w Phoenix 14k bulb.

[zygote2k]

Forgot the most important thing! 10k's will most definitely wash out your coral's colors. All the frags in my 10k tank have almost completely lost their true colors. It takes about a month to loose them and another month to get them back when put back under a higher (k) rated bulb. That is another reason to go with a 14k or higher bulb.

Nate, Your corals should look natural under 10k light. That is closest to natural light. Maybe you just have brown corals...

Bob- here's what I know about the different colors.

10k grows faster than 14k, which grows faster than 20k. In the 5 tanks that use MH, I use 14k and get good growth results. If you are looking for good overall color with a little fluorescing, go with a 12k or 14k. If you are a member of the blue water club, go with 20k. Bulb manufacturers don't seem to be drastically different anymore either. I buy MH bulbs for $35-$40 any size or flavor and they work fine and look great.

Here's a pic of Reefhunters old 220 under 10k. No loss of color here...

[chucelli]

Let's just clarify this whole "natural" or "true" color argument.

If you guys have ever been diving on a reef, you'll see that coral colors are nothing like what they look like in our aquariums. It's all a matter of preference. Most like their corals to pop and be florescent in color, while that may not necessarily be "natural", it IS definitely more colorful than it appears on a wild reef. I've never seen a florescent colored coral on a reef. Most are beige, cream, olive, etc... reds look more like brown or black more than 15 feet under the water surface. The brightest color I've noticed is probably pink. While 10k does come closest to natural sunlight, there definitely is color loss when compared to corals grown accustomed to lighting that's heavy in the actinic range. Nate has come pretty good examples in his tanks. Since color loss is relative, you can't really conclude there is no loss of color when you are not comparing it to anything, as in zygote2k's picture of Reefhunter's tank.

Edited August 21, 2009 by chucelli

[Nate]

Nate, Your corals should look natural under 10k light. That is closest to natural light. Maybe you just have brown corals...

 

First off, I don't collect "brown corals."

 

The best example of a frag being washed out by 10k's is a frag of ORA green birds nest. My main tank has 14k's and my frag has a 10k. I broke off a frag of the green birds nest that was in my main tank and put it in the 10k. Months later not only does it look washed out under the 10k, but when I move it back to the 14k tank it still looks almost completely washed out. Therefore the answer is yes, corals get washed out under 10k lights. Weather it be natural or not, NO ONE wants their once beautiful corals washed out...everyone wants fluorescent eye catching corals.

[Sikryd]

Its funny when I read and see this stuff about natural vs. ect.

 

Our tanks are nothing like a real reef, the bulbs aren't the sun, and like someone stated - divers have no clue what a coral will look like when in a home aquarium and it is acclimated.

 

I get stuff from a guy that is pro 10k - he probably has 30k-50k in livestock - it is all muted brown in color, not saying it isn't colorful, but no where near the pop you can really get out of some of these corals. I LOVE going to his house and picking up a few things here and there, cause I know once I get them home after about a month the coral will look insane in my tank, if they looked half way decent in his.

 

Sure he gets sweet growth, but he has an established reef, so he has to cut stuff more than anything. Not to mention his walls look "yellow" from the halides.

 

I put 14k Phoenix's on magnetic ballasts, per a lot of people suggestions. It looks as natural as can be. My walls are "white" again and the color/flourescensce of my corals show and look "natural".

 

The best thing to do is see someones setup that you like, and then emulate it.

 

I have seen 50+ tanks around here, and up north all the way to New York - imo the most UNNATURAL looking tanks are the ones with 10k's on them (of which there are very few that still run them on their show tanks)

 

The old 10k for growth arguement is outdated. We have the technology now in bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors that you don't need the par from a 10k to get growth. The 14k and even some 20k bulbs are getting the same par that 10k's used to when the point was valid.

Most corals above 400 par reach their saturation point and won't grow or use the light anyway.

My .02

[watson_barrett]

I have noticed substantial difference in color hue under the same k for differenct brands.

 

My personnal favorite hue that i have ran thus far is the aqua connect 14k bulbs. They are VERY pricy though...

[watson_barrett]

FYI, that is the bulb running and associated color in my avitar....

 

I just switched it out for a ushio 14k since it was getting old and i have to say the ushio is much "whiter" I would rather sacrafice slower growth for the more color

Edited August 21, 2009 by watson_barrett

[chucelli]

Just to clarify further..

There is a definite perceived difference in color when using different color bulbs, as well as an absolute color once the coral has had time to adapt and grow under the light.

[zygote2k]

The washing out effect can easily be perceived when a coral is under 20k's as well. They look too blue. I personally try to go for a color that makes reds look red and greens look green. Neither with too much blue.

[davelin315]

Hey Bob, the 250 DE will be much more light than you need over a tray like that. That's what I use on my system for frag trays, a 50 gallon rubbermaid stock tank, and I have a 400W SE bulb overdriven hanging above it at about 1', which is way more than I actually need. I use the 20K Helios mogul bulb powered by a PFO 400W HQI in a Lumenarc and it covers the entire tray and then some with ease. Given that the water depth is not very high in the stock tank and the fact that you'll probably have the corals raised up since you'll probably use egg crating, your corals will most likely be about 4" underwater on average and will grow up to the top. If a 150 DE bulb would cover that much ground I'd say you'd have enough light. I think you'll get plenty of coverage in a good reflector with a simply 175W bulb or even a 250W mogul base bulb if you really want to add a lot of light. You saw my system before, not sure if you remember it, but you'll get ample light in one of those trays from pretty much anything. Plus, the bonus is that the higher you hang the light the more shimmer you'll get in the room from light reflected off the surface!

[lanman]

Hey Bob, the 250 DE will be much more light than you need over a tray like that. That's what I use on my system for frag trays, a 50 gallon rubbermaid stock tank, and I have a 400W SE bulb overdriven hanging above it at about 1', which is way more than I actually need. I use the 20K Helios mogul bulb powered by a PFO 400W HQI in a Lumenarc and it covers the entire tray and then some with ease. Given that the water depth is not very high in the stock tank and the fact that you'll probably have the corals raised up since you'll probably use egg crating, your corals will most likely be about 4" underwater on average and will grow up to the top. If a 150 DE bulb would cover that much ground I'd say you'd have enough light. I think you'll get plenty of coverage in a good reflector with a simply 175W bulb or even a 250W mogul base bulb if you really want to add a lot of light. You saw my system before, not sure if you remember it, but you'll get ample light in one of those trays from pretty much anything. Plus, the bonus is that the higher you hang the light the more shimmer you'll get in the room from light reflected off the surface!

 

@*#&$%!!! More confusion - guess I should have been paying more attention to discussions about MH lights. Based on the above - a SE bulb creates less light than a DE bulb of the same wattage? By a LOT? If a 250DE is too much, but your 400SE is 'just right' - does that make me Goldilocks?

 

You are correct - the corals will mostly be on egg-crate, and only 4-6" under the water. I sneak live rock in under the egg-crate, and hold the egg-crate off the bottom with sections of 3-4" diameter PVC.

 

240 watts of T5 seems 'just right' over my current 50G stock tank - but doesn't cover the edges very well. The fixture is 36" long - and only about 8" off the water.

 

I 'get' the 10K, 14K, 20K arguments - and I think 14K will give me enough 'color enhancement' so that I can almost make chalices look those beautiful colors that I see under my 'actinics' (actnic/actinic+). I am also convinced that 14K will 'grow corals' just fine. And yes - shimmer around the room is awesome. I have one little 70W HQI light over my 24-gallon tank.

 

Where I've still got questions is the size of the bulb, and the type of reflector. Are we agreed that 250W DE bulb in a Lumenarc is too much? I do recall recommendations to use 250W bulbs because the choices are much wider than 150W - but I don't have any desire to fry my favorite favites. Where would the middle ground here be? A nice 250SE type bulb in a good reflector? Or a 150W DE?

 

Thanks,

bob

[Sikryd]

Yes a 250w in a lumenarc type reflector would torch your corals. Those reflectors are pretty insane as far as par transfer.

 

I have done a lot of testing on my tank with 250w DE and magnetic ballast.

 

I think I had a par chart in my tank thread.

 

A 250w @ 12" - 16" would be perfect for your application, depending on what you are growing. 12" center you will probably get 300-450 par, bring it up to 16" and you will be in the 250-350 range - dead center of course. Bring out from there and you are looking @ ~ 100 par at the fringes.

That would be my best guess based on the testing I have done with my setup.

Edited August 21, 2009 by Sikryd

[Boret]

I don't have the expertise or the technical knowledge to give you a scientific theory on lights. I will however, let you know my personal experience.

In my old 55 I used DE 250W 10k Ushios with T5 actinic supplementation. I was getting decent growth but the colors didn't pop up. I just thought that the corals looked that way.

 

When I built the 92 I changed to a Lumenarc Reflector with a SE 400w MH 20k Radium. The same corals that had very little coloration in the 55 are developing great tones. I am a sucker for the blues and greens. The growth I am getting is fantastic (I will say better than the growth I was getting before -- but of course, there are many other factors not only light). Additionally to the 20k Radium I supplement with T12 Actinics (Mostly for dawn and dusk effect) so I have a fairly "blue" coloration.

 

I think the best thing you can do is to take a look at different tanks with different bulbs and decide for yourself. After I saw a coupe of the tanks with the Radiums I knew that was the color I wanted. You are welcome to come over and take a look.

[ctenophore]

@*#&$%!!! More confusion - guess I should have been paying more attention to discussions about MH lights. Based on the above - a SE bulb creates less light than a DE bulb of the same wattage? By a LOT? If a 250DE is too much, but your 400SE is 'just right' - does that make me Goldilocks?

 

You are correct - the corals will mostly be on egg-crate, and only 4-6" under the water. I sneak live rock in under the egg-crate, and hold the egg-crate off the bottom with sections of 3-4" diameter PVC.

 

240 watts of T5 seems 'just right' over my current 50G stock tank - but doesn't cover the edges very well. The fixture is 36" long - and only about 8" off the water.

 

I 'get' the 10K, 14K, 20K arguments - and I think 14K will give me enough 'color enhancement' so that I can almost make chalices look those beautiful colors that I see under my 'actinics' (actnic/actinic+). I am also convinced that 14K will 'grow corals' just fine. And yes - shimmer around the room is awesome. I have one little 70W HQI light over my 24-gallon tank.

 

Where I've still got questions is the size of the bulb, and the type of reflector. Are we agreed that 250W DE bulb in a Lumenarc is too much? I do recall recommendations to use 250W bulbs because the choices are much wider than 150W - but I don't have any desire to fry my favorite favites. Where would the middle ground here be? A nice 250SE type bulb in a good reflector? Or a 150W DE?

 

Thanks,

bob

 

SE vs DE is very little difference in output. All depends on the reflector style, quality and cleanliness. I used 250w SE 20k with corals 4" under water and had good results in the past, same with 250w SE 10k in 30" of water. 150w would also work, but the bulb needs to be closer therefore less coverage. Also it's hard to work in a tank with a bulb 6" from the water.

 

I disagree with the spectrum stuff above. Natural sunlight (6500k) will produce good color, I am seeing it right now in my new GH. My efflo500 is getting purpler by the day @450-550 micromols PAR. ORA uses only natural sunlight in their new GH, their colors are great right out of their tubs. IME, the key is light intensity and water quality.

 

I have seen some ridiculously intense colors (purple porites) while diving/snorkeling in less than 5ft of water on the belize barrier reef. The deeper corals don't lack color; they just appear muted since visible spectrum is filtered out.

[davelin315]

Bob, it's hard to say one way or the other about what's more powerful, but suffice it to say that not all bulb/ballast combinations are equal. There was a time when a 250W DE bulb would put out the same amount of PAR as the 400W SE bulb of the same make, not sure if this is the case any longer, but the 250W DE were, in some cases, way outperforming the 250W SE and equalling the 400W SE bulbs. Now, that said, it all depends on what you go with. Choose a color and then go from there. It's going to be very difficult to see what color you like unless you see one in person, so I would suggest seeing other people's tanks with MH and figuring out which bulb coloration you like. Then, figure out which ballast will fire it the best and then get your reflector - get a good one! By the way, I have heard nothing but good things about the Sunlight Supply Galaxy electric ballasts. Not that I've researched them much, but I have heard that they do a great job with both the radium and the helios 20K bulbs and put out a ton of PAR, better than the overdriven HQI ballasts do (wish they had these when I was putting my system together!).

[lanman]

I'm not too worried about bulbs... or I wasn't. I can just switch, right? ... but maybe not, now that you say find out which ballast drives which bulb best, etc.

 

On color - I know there are tanks that I consider 'too blue'. I reckon those have the 20K bulbs of some sort.

 

Rocko's is 'slightly' bluer than I would normally like, for example - but it suits his in wall unit very nicely. I will just ask some people what lights they have as far as color.

 

I got the wood for the stand and the stock tank this evening... so I need to figure out the lighting soon.

 

Thanks for the hints so far - will do some online searching, and see what seems to fit the bill. Always willing to hear more options/ideas.

 

bob

[lanman]

How about this one: with 14K Ushio ??

 

http://www.specialty-lights.com/al250hqi.html

 

bob

[Sikryd]

I'm not sure on that combo since I haven't tried out the Ushio 14k.

The ballast should be a good M80 though.

 

Sanjays Lighting guide is where I got a LOT of my information when I was looking.

You'll have to sign up at Manhattan Reefs, which takes about 30 seconds. But he has spectoral plot charts, par readings, and everything else you could imagine with different bulb/ballast combos.

 

I ended up sticking with the tried and true from hearing from other people since it was just too much information and to be honest, I didn't really care that much. I wanted a nice crisp white light, with good growth.