overflow down a horozontal pipe, is it possible?

[queloque]

I have a 125 gallon 6 foot long tank with two overflows, one on each corner. I would like to put my sump in the garage which is about 10 feet from the left overflow to the right of the tank throw a dividing wall to the garage. I don't think there is enough gravity to push the water that far horizontally, or is it?

 

Are there any examples of this type of plumping? Is there a pump that can pump the overflow to my sump inside the garage? I don't want a sump under the tank and I want a large sump.

 

I hope I explained this clearly, please let me know if I didn't.

 

Thanks.

[Origami]

As long as the water exits lower than it enters the pipe and the pipe is full of water (that is, as long as there's positive head pressure), you'll have flow by gravity. Some parts of my drainage runs around 10 (horizontal) feet. My display drains into a sump in the next room with about a 10' maximum horizontal run as well.

 

Be aware that if you're pumping water back into the display from your garage-located sump, water will naturally flow into your overflow piping, thereby "pushing" water out into your sump.

 

Where are you located? You may wish to consider listing your location in your profile.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Origami2547

[queloque]

As long as the water exits lower than it enters the pipe and the pipe is full of water (that is, as long as there's positive head pressure), you'll have flow by gravity. Some parts of my drainage runs around 10 (horizontal) feet. My display drains into a sump in the next room with about a 10' maximum horizontal run as well.

 

Be aware that if you're pumping water back into the display from your garage-located sump, water will naturally flow into your overflow piping, thereby "pushing" water out into your sump.

 

Where are you located? You may wish to consider listing your location in your profile.

 

I'm in manassas. Do you have a pic of your setup? I really want a sump I can work on freely managing a refugium in the garage with no mess where the tank is.

 

So no pump would be needed? One friend suggested a smaller tank under my display tank than pump water from there to the sump in the garage but I cannot see that working if the tank is smaller than the sump in the garage.

[Origami]

I can get a picture, sure.

 

A pump is not needed to get water to your sump if your sump is at a lower level than your display (as is almost always the case). You will have to have a pump, though, to return the water to your display.

 

Can I ask how long you've been contemplating your setup? Have you visited any other reefers' house to see their setup? We have several members in Manassas and one popular LFS (local fish store), Blue Ribbon Koi, is right off 234 outside town (toward 15). The staff there could show you a little bit about how their system is configured to help give you a sense of how plumbing works.

 

Let me take some pics....

[queloque]

I can get a picture, sure.

 

A pump is not needed to get water to your sump if your sump is at a lower level than your display (as is almost always the case). You will have to have a pump, though, to return the water to your display.

 

Can I ask how long you've been contemplating your setup? Have you visited any other reefers' house to see their setup? We have several members in Manassas and one popular LFS (local fish store), Blue Ribbon Koi, is right off 234 outside town (toward 15). The staff there could show you a little bit about how their system is configured to help give you a sense of how plumbing works.

 

Let me take some pics....

 

I just bought the 125 this past weekend from someone and i'm migrating from a 90 gallon which had a hanging overflow. With my 90 gallon I had a small sump under the tank and found it very irritating and messy to work with and my stand for the 125 really doesn't allow me the ability to fit a large sump.

 

As far as visiting anyone's house, no. I'm new here recommended by a member. I do need to stop by Blue Ribbon which isn't far from me.

 

I'm still cleaning the tank and i'm migrating my 90 gallon from my ex-wifes house which is 90 miles away so I have to take things pretty slow and make sure that I get everything right before moving my fish and live rock over.

 

My t5's are coming in the mail so I would like to get the plumping and sump ready to go.

[Origami]

Picture #1 looks under my 180 display at one of two drains. One of the descending pipes is a return, while the other is a drain. The one on the right is actually the return. You can see how the return line elbows back outside the stand to the wall that's behind the stand.

 

 

Picture #2 shows the drain in the last shot entering a PVC tee (1" flex PVC entering a 1.5" PVC Tee) and exiting the stand back toward the wall. There's a union between the tee and the wall.

 

 

Picture #3 shows the drain (toward the center of the picture) passing into a sanitary tee on the other side of the wall. The upright above the sanitary tee is actually a vent, capped and drilled to keep the drain system quiet and flowing without siphon action. The flow of the water is to the right in this picture. Other system elements (a refugium and a frag tank) drain into the main horizontal run and the display is actually about the last system element entering the drain before it reaches the sump.

 

 

Picture #4 shows the drain line rounding a corner (twice) and entering the side of my 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank through a 1-1/2 inch bulkhead adapter. This is my sump. You'll notice that there's a slight rise in the drain line (which otherwise had been flowing 'downhill' in all the other pictures). Water enters the sump and makes a left turn, circulating water in the sump (clockwise when viewed from the top). You can also see how water is returned from my sump from the bulkhead adapter toward the bottom of the picture. While it looks like I'm taking water off the bottom of the sump, there's actually an upright pipe and strainer inside the sump that helps me take water from the middle of the water column in the sump. The return is made via the Reeflo Wahoo pump that is visible just beyond the valve in the center of the picture.

 

 

Picture #5 is an overview of my sump area. In the upper left of the picture, you can see some of my manifold plumbing that separates my water return to feed multiple systems (2 to the display, 1 to the refugium / frag tank combo, and one to a garden hose that's used for water changes. One port on the manifold is being held in reserve for expansion or whatever use I might have later on.) It looks like I need to empty the skimmer again!

 

 

Questions?

Edited April 21, 2009 by Origami2547

[queloque]

Picture #1 looks under my 180 display at one of two drains. One of the descending pipes is a return, while the other is a drain. The one on the right is actually the return. You can see how the return line elbows back outside the stand to the wall that's behind the stand.

 

 

Picture #2 shows the drain in the last shot entering a PVC tee (1" flex PVC entering a 1.5" PVC Tee) and exiting the stand back toward the wall. There's a union between the tee and the wall.

 

 

Picture #3 shows the drain (toward the center of the picture) passing into a sanitary tee on the other side of the wall. The upright above the sanitary tee is actually a vent, capped and drilled to keep the drain system quiet and flowing without siphon action. The flow of the water is to the right in this picture. Other system elements (a refugium and a frag tank) drain into the main horizontal run and the display is actually about the last system element entering the drain before it reaches the sump.

 

 

Picture #4 shows the drain line rounding a corner (twice) and entering the side of my 100 gallon Rubbermaid stock tank through a 1-1/2 inch bulkhead adapter. This is my sump. You'll notice that there's a slight rise in the drain line (which otherwise had been flowing 'downhill' in all the other pictures). Water enters the sump and makes a left turn, circulating water in the sump (clockwise when viewed from the top). You can also see how water is returned from my sump from the bulkhead adapter toward the bottom of the picture. While it looks like I'm taking water off the bottom of the sump, there's actually an upright pipe and strainer inside the sump that helps me take water from the middle of the water column in the sump. The return is made via the Reeflo Wahoo pump that is visible just beyond the valve in the center of the picture.

 

 

Picture #5 is an overview of my sump area. In the upper left of the picture, you can see some of my manifold plumbing that separates my water return to feed multiple systems (2 to the display, 1 to the refugium / frag tank combo, and one to a garden hose that's used for water changes. One port on the manifold is being held in reserve for expansion or whatever use I might have later on.) It looks like I need to empty the skimmer again!

 

 

Questions?

 

 

I have a few questions.

 

So in picture 3 you said the flow of the water is to the right in this picture. What is the distance of this flow to the sump?

[Origami]

9-1/2 horizontal feet. But, you may be missing the point, these horizontal runs could be 50 feet and it wouldn't make much of a difference. The water would flow even in this case.

 

Consider the following thought experiment: Imagine that you have a 50 foot garden hose going down your driveway. Now, grab the end of the hose at the top of your driveway and pour a gallon of water down into the open end of the hose. Look down at the other end of the hose - see the water coming out? Now put the hose on a level sidewalk and do the same thing. You'll get the same result as long as you're holding your end of the hose up higher than the drain end. That's gravity. The horizontal run is not all that important - there's some resistance, yes, but it's inconsequential given the short distances we're talking about as long as the pipe's diameter is large enough so that friction (due to fluid velocity) is not be a limiting factor. This is how water flows out out of your house, too. When water goes down the drain in your house, the distance traveled horizontally is often much, much longer than the vertical descent.

 

In the case of your aquarium overflow, there's water entering the high side of your overflow and it's applying pressure to the water already in the drain system. That water that's higher than the water in other parts of the pipe presses downward, through gravity, on the water that's below it, providing the motivating force to move water through the pipe.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Origami2547

[queloque]

Also I notice everyone using the rubbermade as a sump. How does that work with the use of a separate refugium. I'm used to people building or building a sump with baffles. Does this come out cheaper and easier?

[dschflier]

I have horizontal drain pipes from my 90 to my sump

 

 

I am not sure if this is what you mean but it works for me

[Origami]

Also I notice everyone using the rubbermade as a sump. How does that work with the use of a separate refugium. I'm used to people building or building a sump with baffles. Does this come out cheaper and easier?

 

Not everyone... they are kind of large. You have to have enough space for them. They come in a variety of sizes - 50, 70, and 100 gallons are most common. I believe that they're also available in 150 and 300 gallon sizes. You can find them at Tractor Supply Company. One good thing is that they're very rugged and can withstand the force of being filled with water. After all, that's what they're built for. By the way, David (dschflier) doesn't use a stock tank but has a custom acrylic sump visible on the floor under the stairs in the top picture above.

 

In my case, I keep a separate refugium tank. You can plumb it in separately or can integrate it into your other plumbing with some thought. In my pictures above, my refugium drains into the main drain line that you saw the display emptying into while the return comes from one of the outputs of my return manifold. Return flow is adjusted using the in-line ball valves.

 

My sump has extra live rock and a skimmer (set on a stand) in it. I don't try to subdivide it with baffles.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Origami2547

[queloque]

9-1/2 horizontal feet. But, you may be missing the point, these horizontal runs could be 50 feet and it wouldn't make much of a difference. The water would flow even in this case.

 

Consider the following thought experiment: Imagine that you have a 50 foot garden hose going down your driveway. Now, grab the end of the hose at the top of your driveway and pour a gallon of water down into the open end of the hose. Look down at the other end of the hose - see the water coming out? Now put the hose on a level sidewalk and do the same thing. You'll get the same result as long as you're holding your end of the hose up higher than the drain end. That's gravity. The horizontal run is not all that important - there's some resistance, yes, but it's inconsequential given the short distances we're talking about as long as the pipe's diameter is large enough so that friction (due to fluid velocity) is not be a limiting factor. This is how water flows out out of your house, too. When water goes down the drain in your house, the distance traveled horizontally is often much, much longer than the vertical descent.

 

In the case of your aquarium overflow, there's water entering the high side of your overflow and it's applying pressure to the water already in the drain system. That water that's higher than the water in other parts of the pipe presses downward, through gravity, on the water that's below it, providing the motivating force to move water through the pipe.

 

 

Ok, so I just need to do is a lot of measuring and get the right plumbing. I'm still searching for a sump. I would like to keep it on a table but like you said it should be below the display so I guess it will sit on the garage floor.

Edited April 21, 2009 by queloque

[zygote2k]

When I was a plumber, a 1/4" grade per 10' was sufficient for drain purposes.

[Origami]

See below. (Oddly, I received an unintended double post.)

Edited April 21, 2009 by Origami2547

[Origami]

When I was a plumber, a 1/4" grade per 10' was sufficient for drain purposes.

 

That's still code, I believe. If you need the pipe to empty completely after the water flow stops, that's advised as well. However, I don't need that to happen in my system (unless I'm completely draining it down), so I'm comfortable with the slight rise in the piping just before sump entry.

 

Queloque, if you'd like to see my setup sometime (I'm in Ashburn, just north of Manassas), I'd be happy to show it to you personally and to discuss some thoughts and to address some of your questions on the subject.

[dschflier]

another thing to consider is using air vents when you plumb. I think this has helped speed up and quite down my drains. Any plumber can answer this but I do this with most of my drains.

[Origami]

another thing to consider is using air vents when you plumb. I think this has helped speed up and quite down my drains. Any plumber can answer this but I do this with most of my drains.

 

Yep. I have four vents on my drain system. Probably overkill, but it prevents any siphoning sounds. I cap each vent though with a drilled cap much like what you'd see on a Durso drain. This keeps the noise from water moving through the drain down as well.

[queloque]

That's still code, I believe. If you need the pipe to empty completely after the water flow stops, that's advised as well. However, I don't need that to happen in my system (unless I'm completely draining it down), so I'm comfortable with the slight rise in the piping just before sump entry.

 

Queloque, if you'd like to see my setup sometime (I'm in Ashburn, just north of Manassas), I'd be happy to show it to you personally and to discuss some thoughts and to address some of your questions on the subject.

 

 

Thanks, I might have to take you up on that. What are the sizes of your piping and where do you strategically place your turn off valves and how many do you need?

[Origami]

Thanks, I might have to take you up on that. What are the sizes of your piping and where do you strategically place your turn off valves and how many do you need?

 

Most of my plumbing is 1-1/2 inch, necking down to 1 inch at the various tanks. Return into each tank, though, is 3/4". The number of valves and unions that you use is a personal design choice and depends upon how much control you want or need to facilitate maintenance (including breaking down or servicing plumbing without breaking down the tanks tied to it), and the cost you're willing to bear. Designs vary. I can't give you a hard number.

[JMsAquarium]

Also I notice everyone using the rubbermade as a sump. How does that work with the use of a separate refugium. I'm used to people building or building a sump with baffles. Does this come out cheaper and easier?

 

 

Here's what I did. Top shelf a refugium. Under it on the floor, a 100 gal Rubbermaid stock tank. Left shelf, a frag tank.

A Maxijet 1200 pumps water from the sump tinto the refugium. Water overflows from the refugium into the frag tank and frm the frag tank into the sump. The main tank will be in another room upstairs. If you have the space you can easily accomodate your sump , refugium and whatever else in a room and your main tank in another one. As Tom and the others have mentionned, it is easy to do and do not use a pump to send water from the main tank to the sump. Let gravity do the work.

 

[queloque]

Ok, I have a question.

 

Should I run my horizontal pipe from the two overflows to sump with one pipe or two

and return with one pipe or two?

 

I guess basically what i'm asking is can the piping to and from be all done with two pipes through the wall and is that the most

efficient?

 

From the picture you can see I will be running pipe to the right of the tank and through the wall.

I think I will put two plants or some displays on each side of the tank to hide the pipe running across.

 

1. How low below the display tank before I elbow horizontally to the right through the wall?

2. Should the pipe be a a big slant downward toward the wall?

 

[Origami]

This link will give you some idea of the capacity of standard PVC pipe: http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml

 

With 1" drains, if you're going to merge two of them, you want to increase the merged pipe size to a minimum of 1.5" to avoid a major capacity constriction. You can go larger if you want. This is applicable to both return and drain situations.

 

To answer your two questions:

1) You can elbow over wherever you think is appropriate. If you avoid long vertical drops, you may be able to pipe noise somewhat.

2) A "big slant" is not necessary. Water will flow to the pipe exit as long as the exit is below the entry point to the pipe and there is positive head pressure to move it out (i.e. as long as water is flowing into the pipe at a higher level, it will flow out an exit placed at a lower point - not necessarily at the lowest point - in the route). A modest slant (1/4" per foot of horizontal run) is typical for household drains which are designed to completely drain intermittent water flow. Note that our aquarium application has a continuous, not intermittent, flow. Thus, the slant is not needed. As long as the exit is lower than the entry point, you'll get flow. However, if you want to be able to completely empty the pipe should flow into the pipe stop, then you should slant the pipe, making the exit the lowest point in the drain, or put a drain in at the lowest point in the run.

[queloque]

So guys this is how a drew out my plumbing.

 

Is there something I need to add, take out, recommendations in terms of flow, size of pipe, switch off valves, prevention of gurgling sound, type of pump, etc?

The return to tank pipe might be at the most in length 10 ft give or take. I would lean toward less just to put them in perspective.

 

Edited April 22, 2009 by queloque

[Origami]

The basics are fine. I would use a Durso-style overflow to provide some venting and to help quiet things some. I would add ball valves at both tank drains and returns. Personally, I use full union valves here so that I can overhaul the plumbing if required. You might also put a ball or gate valve on the pressure side of your return pump so that you can throttle it back from a single point if needed.

 

I'd use 1-1/2 inch minimum pipe for the merged drains . 1-1/4 inch minimum for the merged return.

 

If you submerge and "L" your return at your sump, it'll run quieter.

 

If you ever get to using an external pump, having valves and unions in line and close is very useful to facilitate pump cleaning, repair or replacement.

 

As I recall, you're planning on putting your sump in the garage, right? You may wish to consider several things in this case:

 

a) Impact on evaporation

b) Impact on temperature and the need for temperature control (especially in the summer if the garage gets particularly hot)

c) Vulnerability / access to accidental pollutants

Edited April 22, 2009 by Origami2547

[queloque]

The basics are fine. I would use a Durso-style overflow to provide some venting and to help quiet things some. I would add ball valves at both tank drains and returns. Personally, I use full union valves here so that I can overhaul the plumbing if required. You might also put a ball or gate valve on the pressure side of your return pump so that you can throttle it back from a single point if needed.

 

I'd use 1-1/2 inch minimum pipe for the merged drains . 1-1/4 inch minimum for the merged return.

 

If you submerge and "L" your return at your sump, it'll run quieter.

 

If you ever get to using an external pump, having valves and unions in line and close is very useful to facilitate pump cleaning, repair or replacement.

 

As I recall, you're planning on putting your sump in the garage, right? You may wish to consider several things in this case:

 

a) Impact on evaporation

b) Impact on temperature and the need for temperature control (especially in the summer if the garage gets particularly hot)

c) Vulnerability / access to accidental pollutants

 

 

1. I have the Durso style that came with the tank

2. On the Ball/gate valves from my diagram where should I place them exactly or ideally? - Well I guess I can see from your pictures you posted.

3. On the 1-1/2 and 1-1/4 are you saying the drain should have greater flow than the return?

4. Will do on the submerged with the "L".

5. You did mention The upright sanitary tee in your 3rd picture, would I need that?

 

As far as placing it in a garage, I already have a chiller from my 90 gallon so i will use that to maintain a constant temp.

The garage stays very cool through the summer.

 

Should I be concerned with exhaust from the car that is parked in the garage?

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

I think I will go for a 55 to 75 tank as my sump/refugium. A glass company in Mananas said they can cut my baffles at $11 each.

Edited April 22, 2009 by queloque