Can't Figure Out Why Fish Are Dying

[Josh]

I was wondering if anyone can give advice in helping me figure what can be killing my fish. Basically I have my 12 gallon nano tank (CAD light nano tank that has 4T5 32w w/ full Refugium with a 250 gph pump) running for over two months and it has gone through its cycles. I keep my lights on my tank for about 8 to 10 hours and keep the temperature around 77*F. About three weeks ago I began adding some critters (snails, hermit crabs, sand sifting star fish, emerald crab and brittle star). All the critters were doing awesome. Then a few days later I had added a cleaner shrimp and he is running around the tank like it

[Brian Ward]

I was wondering if anyone can give advice in helping me figure what can be killing my fish. Basically I have my 12 gallon nano tank (CAD light nano tank that has 4T5 32w w/ full Refugium with a 250 gph pump) running for over two months and it has gone through its cycles. I keep my lights on my tank for about 8 to 10 hours and keep the temperature around 77*F. About three weeks ago I began adding some critters (snails, hermit crabs, sand sifting star fish, emerald crab and brittle star). All the critters were doing awesome. Then a few days later I had added a cleaner shrimp and he is running around the tank like it's a playground. During this time I have checked my water parameters and everything is fine. About 1 1/2 weeks ago I had began to add fish. I had added a green chromis, 6 line wrasse, yellow watchman goby and a pistol shrimp. The yellow watchman goby and the pistol shrimp are in a holding cage at the top of my tank in hopes they will pair up once I let them lose in the tank. Everyone was doing fine until 3 days later when my green chromis started to bob up and down in the tank. It would go to the top and then go to the bottom. It will never roll around or flip upside down. When I awoke up the morning the green chromis had died. 2 days following the green chromis death my 6 line wrasse began doing the same thing and it died the next day. At first I thought maybe the emerald crab might be killing my fish when they are sleeping, but once I had removed him from my tank the problem still occurred (I had removed him after the green chromis had died). I had ran my water parameter again and everything is fine and no other things in my tank are dying except for the fish.

 

I wasn't sure if there was something wrong with my test kit, so I had brought my water to a saltwater aquarium store for them to test it and they said my water is fine and that fish just died. So I bought another green chromis to see if that was the case and 3 days later it died, doing the same thing my previous fish were doing. The only thing that I thought was different with this fish vs. the two previous fish was that it looked like this fish was having labored breathing and his gills very moving very fast.

 

So does anyone know what is going on with my tank? Right now the watchman goby and the pistol shrimp are fine since I have them in a holding cage at the top of the tank and all my other critters are doing very well. The only time my fish die is when I turn off the lights for the evening and when I wake up in the morning their dead. I thought if anything is wrong with my tank everything else would be dead. Is there something happening to my fish at the bottom of the tank or when lights go out. Any advice or help is greatly appreciated.

 

If you aren't noticing any bodily trauma, then I don't think any of your other critters are harming the fish. A mantis shrimp would have eaten them or you would notice chunks of them missing. Same with the emerald crab. I'm assuming all your inverts are still doing well? Shrimp, crabs, etc? Are the fish eating when you bring them home? Either the day you introduce them or at least within a day of bringing them home? The behavior sounds like a disease of some sort - likely a parasite such as ich. Ich attacks only the fish, not inverts. And some fish are hearty (strong) enough to fight off a mild infection - could be the case with the watchman. Do you notice any small white spots or other discolorations or unusual markings on the fish? What is the brand of your test kit and what are your parameters? Please include salinity, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

[lhcorals]

You said a Lfs did the water test for you. Did they do Alk. test? What were the numbers of the test. My wife has a 25 gal. nano, she was adding alk. without me knowing. She started losong her fish, they were acting like you were describing yours. Her Alk. was a little over 16dkh or 5.71 meq/L.

[Josh]

You said a Lfs did the water test for you. Did they do Alk. test? What were the numbers of the test. My wife has a 25 gal. nano, she was adding alk. without me knowing. She started losong her fish, they were acting like you were describing yours. Her Alk. was a little over 16dkh or 5.71 meq/L.

 

They did not do an alk test. The only test they did was salinty, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite and they were all normal. I have never added any alk/calcium to my tank. Could alk be the cause of my problem?

[Josh]

If you aren't noticing any bodily trauma, then I don't think any of your other critters are harming the fish. A mantis shrimp would have eaten them or you would notice chunks of them missing. Same with the emerald crab. I'm assuming all your inverts are still doing well? Shrimp, crabs, etc? Are the fish eating when you bring them home? Either the day you introduce them or at least within a day of bringing them home? The behavior sounds like a disease of some sort - likely a parasite such as ich. Ich attacks only the fish, not inverts. And some fish are hearty (strong) enough to fight off a mild infection - could be the case with the watchman. Do you notice any small white spots or other discolorations or unusual markings on the fish? What is the brand of your test kit and what are your parameters? Please include salinity, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate.

 

Thank you for the prompt reply. There was never chunks of my fish missing, except when they died and the hermit crabs and emerald began eating it. All my shrimps, crabs, snails and starfish are great. The fish wouldn't die until 3 days later. I do not believe my fish have ick since I did not see any white spots or discoloration on their bodies when they had died. With testing my water, I haven't bought a kit yet and I take my water to lfs to test it weekly. They said all my ammonia, nitrite, pH levels were normal and when I test my salinity its in right range. Is there something I am missing? I know I should by my own kit, I just haven't found the right kit and trusted the lfs just to help me in the beginning.

[yauger]

I would be very curious about the tests the LFS did for you, depending on the amount of food you feed daily you could be having high nitrates, ammonia, nitrites ect... I would buy some Salferit test kits and do your own testing to confirm. In such a small tank you bio load from your fish & inverts should be high, I would consider not adding anything more than 2 very small fish. Your best bet right now is to continue to do 10% water changes daily until you have replaced 100% volume and then drop your water changes to 5% bi weekly. One of the things that are most difficult with smaller nanos is keeping stability with constant water changes. .02$

[Josh]

I would be very curious about the tests the LFS did for you, depending on the amount of food you feed daily you could be having high nitrates, ammonia, nitrites ect... I would buy some Salferit test kits and do your own testing to confirm. In such a small tank you bio load from your fish & inverts should be high, I would consider not adding anything more than 2 very small fish. Your best bet right now is to continue to do 10% water changes daily until you have replaced 100% volume and then drop your water changes to 5% bi weekly. One of the things that are most difficult with smaller nanos is keeping stability with constant water changes. .02$

 

I had actually had my water tested at two lfs after I had added the fish and both water tests came out normal. I still plan on buying a test kit. I will do the daily water replacement and see if that helps. Is there anything else I should be checking for beside nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, pH and salinity that can be causing this issue?

[lhcorals]

I dont know if ALK is the problem, But to scratch it off the list i would test it. The more test you run the better. Hope you find the problem, Dont get discouraged.

[WDLV]

I have a great deal of respect for those who can keep a nano tank successfully. The chemistry alone is like balancing a ball bearing on the tip of a pen.

 

I think that people tend to overstock their tanks. That the general recommendations are a bit high. I think this is the case with you. In that size tank I would not add more than one pair of small fish (like ocellaris clowns). I think the stress of being in tight quarters is killing your fish.

Chromis IMHO are a species that should be kept in large numbers in an even larger tank. Pistol shrimp are a little too similar to mantis shrimp for my liking. I would never keep one in a tank with fish I particularly cared about. I think your pistol shrimp and goby are the best thing you have going. If they are still alive I would stop with them and maybe add a few small shrimps.

 

Another possibility is that it could be that you have a disease in the tank that has not been able to die before you add the next fish.

 

Hope that helps.

[Josh]

I have a great deal of respect for those who can keep a nano tank successfully. The chemistry alone is like balancing a ball bearing on the tip of a pen.

 

I think that people tend to overstock their tanks. That the general recommendations are a bit high. I think this is the case with you. In that size tank I would not add more than one pair of small fish (like ocellaris clowns). I think the stress of being in tight quarters is killing your fish.

Chromis IMHO are a species that should be kept in large numbers in an even larger tank. Pistol shrimp are a little too similar to mantis shrimp for my liking. I would never keep one in a tank with fish I particularly cared about. I think your pistol shrimp and goby are the best thing you have going. If they are still alive I would stop with them and maybe add a few small shrimps.

 

Another possibility is that it could be that you have a disease in the tank that has not been able to die before you add the next fish.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

Thank you for the great advice. If there is a diease in the tank is there any way of figuring out the diease if you can't see it and then coming up with a cure.

[Sugar Magnolia]

I'd have to agree with the stocking. A 12 gallon nano should only house one or two fish. I think the fact that you added two fish to the tank at one time may have been too much demand on your tank's bioload. In nano's you have much, much less volume of water and any increase in bioload is going to put a strain on your LR's ability to handle the load. IMO, you need to wait a couple more weeks before introducing the watchman and pistol. Let them do their thing so the LR's denitrifying bacteria population can increase to the demand, then after a couple of more weeks add one more fish. Be sure to choose a nano friendly fish. Six line wrasses, while very cool, really need a minimum of 20 gallons with plenty of LR to graze on. Look here for an idea on what fish are best suited for smaller tanks.

 

Bookmark http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php for reference to what your tank's water parameters should be.

 

Welcome to WAMAS!!

Edited November 7, 2008 by Sugar Magnolia

[Josh]

I'd have to agree with the stocking. A 12 gallon nano should only house one or two fish. I think the fact that you added two fish to the tank at one time may have been too much demand on your tank's bioload. In nano's you have much, much less volume of water and any increase in bioload is going to put a strain on your LR's ability to handle the load. IMO, you need to wait a couple more weeks before introducing the watchman and pistol. Let them do their thing so the LR's denitrifying bacteria population can increase to the demand, then after a couple of more weeks add one more fish. Be sure to choose a nano friendly fish. Six line wrasses, while very cool, really need a minimum of 20 gallons with plenty of LR to graze on. Look here for an idea on what fish are best suited for smaller tanks.

 

Bookmark http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php for reference to what your tank's water parameters should be.

 

Welcome to WAMAS!!

 

Thank you everyone for responding to my question. This is great group of people with extensive knowledge on how to run a successful saltwater tank. Thank you. I was thinking in the back of my head though, could I be having a lack of oxygen issue in my tank. I see the fish gills moving very rapidly and was wondering if there could be a lack of O2. Even though I have a powerful pump in the back of my system the outtack is pointed downward and is not creating enough surface tension. Could this be one of my problems.

[zygote2k]

maybe it's just new tank syndrome. add 1 or 2 fish to a 12 gallon tank-MAX.

[WDLV]

I would be concerned about the heavy breathing. A few things come to mind...

 

Ick - Usually the first place paracites attach are the gills followed by heavy breathing.

Brooklynella - typically found with clownfish but not impossible for other fish to succumb.

Ammonia burn - Some fish that come to you have it from the shipping bag but more often it comes from the current tank. Imagine inhaling chlorine gas. It kind of has the same effect on a fish's gills. Given that your system is new and you're overstocking (in my opinion) you may have created another nitrogen cycle with the overzealous addition of new fish and/or decompisition of dead fish. I would re-test the water and also check the date on your test kit to be sure it's not old and faulty. Also make sure you feed lightly for about the first week.

Amyloodinium - This like the others effect the gills first. Looks like Ick on steroids.

Edited November 9, 2008 by WDLV

[walter]

Josh,

Take a look at this.

 

http://saltaquarium.about.com/library/weekly/aa101602.htm

 

Stray Voltage in Saltwater Aquariums

 

two line from the article

 

# Sudden Death of Tank Inhabitants - Many aquarists have tested for voltage leaks in their tanks after experiencing a sudden and otherwise inexplicable loss of fish in their tanks and found that a faulty appliance used in conjunction with their tank was the cause.

# Unusual Behavior of Tank Inhabitants - When continuos strange behavior such as a rapid and jerky swimming pattern or frequent quivering of tank inhabitants is observed, many aquarists have discovered that the cause was stray voltage.

 

Worth a check

Edited November 12, 2008 by walter

[Highland Reefer]

How are you acclimating your new fish to your tank after you buy them?

[walter]

How are you acclimating your new fish to your tank after you buy them?

 

Im not the OP, but I would think fish wouldnt be surviving 6 days after adding them if they were in shock.

 

I usually float the bag for 30m then add a little tank water for 5 min then dump them in. All have survived.

[Highland Reefer]

I would at least float the fish in the bag and then add small amounts of tank water (1/2 cup) every 15 minutes for at least an hour or two. Dripping is better.

 

One of the big problems IMO is many reefers keep their salinity at around 1.026 - 1.027. The LFS typically keeps their salinity at 1.022. This is a fairly drastic change. Other problems can be a large difference in tank water pH or alkalinity. A pH change of greater than 0.2 is not recommended and should be done gradually. An alk. change of more than 2.0 should be done gradually. It may take a fairly long period of time before a fish dies from improper acclimation. If the fish stay in the bag long enough, a build-up of ammonia could occur, which is more dangerous to the fish. Ammonia build-up during shipping is one of the big killers of fish when they are transported to local fish stores & the way the LFS acclimates can be the reason why your fish die.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[gmubeach]

What do you run for filtration have you removed the spounges from the back yet? Additionally the standard rule for saltwater fish is 1/2" of adult fish per gallon so you should have no more then about 5" of fish in a 12 gallon thats about 2.5 inchs of adult fish for two fish or a pair of clowns or what not .... one more thing my emerald crab was picking off my fish nanos are way too confined for these guys.... why is he in your tank? is algee a problem ... I also had a red legged hermit jump off the rock onto my fish... he would catch them every once in a while... also where do you get your water from do/ro or the petstore or where?

[Josh]

What do you run for filtration have you removed the spounges from the back yet? Additionally the standard rule for saltwater fish is 1/2" of adult fish per gallon so you should have no more then about 5" of fish in a 12 gallon thats about 2.5 inchs of adult fish for two fish or a pair of clowns or what not .... one more thing my emerald crab was picking off my fish nanos are way too confined for these guys.... why is he in your tank? is algee a problem ... I also had a red legged hermit jump off the rock onto my fish... he would catch them every once in a while... also where do you get your water from do/ro or the petstore or where?

 

 

hank you everyone for replying to my question. After reading all of your posts, I had gotten a test kit to see what my parameters are and compared it to lfs results. My parameters are pH 8.2, NO2 is 0.08-0.1 ppm, NO3 is 200 ppm, ammonia is 0 and salinity is 1.021. As you can see my NO3 levels are quite high. Everything in my tank is alive and doing well. There is very little algae growth on my glass and sand bed, but I do have algae growth on my rocks. For the last two weeks I have been removing and replacing about 10% of my saltwater, but the nitrate level will not drop. I can not find anything that is dying that might keep the level this high. I had asked my lfs what could be spiking my nitrate and they said my NO3 kit could be expired or I am overfeeding my watchmen goby, but I had ran a test against RO water and it showed no nitrates, also my kit does not expire till 2010 and I only feed my watchman goby about 3-4 pellets of food a day and whatever he does not eat gets eaten by the hermit crabs.

 

I was wondering if my refugeem is causing high levels of nitrates. I have a 3 chamber refugeem in the back of my tanks. One chamber is filled with live rock (which was recommended by my lfs) with a filter pad sitting over the live rock (this is where my tank water enters the back). From this chamber the water then goes into my middle chamber which has a bed of live sand (3/4") with my live algae that has light shinning on it 24/7. From that chamber the water than gets pumped back into my tank.

 

Also, someone suggested that I should put a cleaner clam in back of my refugeem to help lower my nitrates. Would anyone suggest doing that or have any other suggestions in what I can do to lower my nitrates. My tank has been running about 3

[gmubeach]

No on the cleaner clam for the following reasons:)

 

1. From what I've read not an expert, but was thinking of putting on in the clams are basically the same ones you buy at the supermarket and are not from reefs and need cold periods...

 

2. I have 2 regular croceas clams and they help with nitrates.

 

3. The clams I have pull alot of calcium out of the water I have no idea how much a cleaner would pull...

 

4. If it dies I've read that they realease alot of material back into the tank... plus if its in your refugium you won't see it dead....

 

Things I can recomment...

 

a regular crocea small like 1.5-2 inches while they do require feeding I have found them to be a colorful addition but two things check your lighting and see if you have enough and watch your calcium levels...

 

Also KEEP CULERPA out of your tank its a type of algee that looks like grapes or leaves not cheato.. alot of people with large tanks have it ... I've been battling it for going on 6 months finally I nuked my rock....

 

Aptesia is the devil in a little tank as well as a big one and you will most likely get it if you don't have it... joes juice or similar products...

 

watch the hermits too they get very agressive in alittle tank I had to throw one in my sump for trying to eat a shrimp...

I go hermitless I go back I go hermitless I go back basically I'm still torn, but if you can find them white zebra hermits seem to be the most docile and worth every penny...

 

Anyway if you want to talk tank email me I will send you one:)

[Jon Lazar]

Lots of good advice here, but don't forget about oxygen. An overstocked tank, especially a nano, can suffer from low oxygen levels and it's not easy to test for.

 

Do you have a skimmer running on your nano? If not, I would suspect low oxygen even more.

[yauger]

Lots of good advice here, but don't forget about oxygen. An overstocked tank, especially a nano, can suffer from low oxygen levels and it's not easy to test for.

 

Do you have a skimmer running on your nano? If not, I would suspect low oxygen even more.

 

can you resolve a low oxygen issue by running ozone?

[zygote2k]

What do you run for filtration have you removed the spounges from the back yet? Additionally the standard rule for saltwater fish is 1/2" of adult fish per gallon so you should have no more then about 5" of fish in a 12 gallon thats about 2.5 inchs of adult fish for two fish or a pair of clowns or what not .... one more thing my emerald crab was picking off my fish nanos are way too confined for these guys.... why is he in your tank? is algee a problem ... I also had a red legged hermit jump off the rock onto my fish... he would catch them every once in a while... also where do you get your water from do/ro or the petstore or where?

The old rule of thumb for saltwater was an inch of fish per 5 gallons. This was a standard in the LFS's I used to work for.

[gmubeach]

Nice whatever works for you its just a guide... and it changes every year or person to person personally, If you add your fish slower I think it works out better... Don't over exceed by oxygon, bioload, or compatablity and you should be ok...