Electrical Help needed...

[NightOwl]

Hey Gang,

I have a question on a new circuit breaker I want to install. I would like to add one CFCI socket and two or three sockets in a 3 or 4 gang box. I have already cut the wall for a single box and fished the new 12-2 wire for a 20 amp breaker. I have yet to install the circuit breaker or connect the wires to the service panel. After some more reading I was wondering would it be better to install a 20 amp CFCI circuit breaker and three to four sockets in the a box? Will putting the 3 to 4 sockets in one box violate any electrical codes?

 

Thanks

Edited August 11, 2008 by NightOwl

[reefmontalvo]

Not to sound like a fresh but if you go to the county website you can look up the current code. I think Lowe's might even sell the current county codes.

[NightOwl]

reefmontalvo,

I checked the county website before posting and I am reaching PDF saturation . If someones knows off hand it's quicker than me skimming through mulitple pdf documents not really knowing what I am looking for. I will check Lowes tomorrow but I don't think it will give me what I want either. I am hoping an electrician can answer the question off hand and save me some reading.

 

Thanks

[CHUBAKAH]

Hey Gang,

I have a question on a new circuit breaker I want to install. I would like to add one CFCI socket and two or three sockets in a 3 or 4 gang box. I have already cut the wall for a single box and fished the new 12-2 wire for a 20 amp breaker. I have yet to install the circuit breaker or connect the wires to the service panel. After some more reading I was wondering would it be better to install a 20 amp CFCI circuit breaker and three to four sockets in the a box? Will putting the 3 to 4 sockets in one box violate any electrical codes?

 

Thanks

 

First off I am not sure of that is a typo, but I am assuming you are talking about a GFCI Ground Fault Circuit Interrupt?

 

Also, I'm not sure what you are going to be using this circuit for, however 20AMPS for a typical fish tank is a bit much. I would go with 15AMPS and 14-2 is all you need.

 

No, putting 3 or 4 plugs in one box is fine, however you will want to make sure you can find an outlet cover that will work first. [Home Depot only has up to two, and Lowes has a 3 gang cover] Standard code is 12 plugs, and or lights per circuit, HOWEVER when wiring up for aquariums it is very important that you first add up your total power.

 

Lastly, if your planning to use any lights on this new circuit DO NOT have them on the GFCI side.

 

If you are not an electrician, I would never suggest you wire this up yourself. Playing in the main panel is no joke, and can kill you in one wrong move.

[Buucca]

Last I checked panel GFCI breakers were very costly. The triple gang box you will find later you will outgrow quickly. Just install your GFCI outlet in the single gang box and plug in an appropriate length plug strip.

 

Bill

[Brian Ward]

Henry,

 

Go with a 3-gang box for outlets - it's hard to find a 4-gang cover. You'll probably want 2 or 3 3-gang boxes for the whole tank. 20A isn't too big and and as long as you've run 12-2 wire, I'd stick with the 20A breaker. My recommendation would be to go with GFCI outlets - all wired independently to get maximum sensitivity and to trip off the minimum number of devices if you get a fault. I would also recommend that you install a 20A Arc Fault breaker in the panel. If you want help, let me know. I've done a ton of electrical work in the past including changing out entire panels and installing sub panels.

 

~Brian

[Integral9]

If you have a 20A breaker on the line then a 20A GFI would be a good idea. If you went with a 15A GFI you would either blow the GFI or trip it prematurely when the Amps got above 15. If you just used 20A rated wire and have a 15A breaker then a 15A GFI is what you want.

 

As far as the gang box is concerned. I don't think there is a limit to the size of the gang box you can have. But the biggest residential one I have seen is a 4-way. Although my commercial building has a few 6-way and 8-way boxes.

 

FYI: It sounds like you are doing an in-wall install. Be sure to use 'plenum' wire otherwise it's a code violation and a higher risk of fire.

 

The last time I relied on one of those 'Big Box' store so-called "experts" my basement had 2" of water in it.

[CHUBAKAH]

20A isn't too big and and as long as you've run 12-2 wire, I'd stick with the 20A breaker.

 

~Brian

Since you are debating what I suggested, please explain why? Nothing, that I am aware of needs 20 amps to operate in a typical reef system. IMO your just adding more time before a small problem becomes larger.

 

My recommendation would be to go with GFCI outlets - all wired independently to get maximum sensitivity and to trip off the minimum number of devices if you get a fault.

 

~Brian

@minimum $20 bucks a pop for a GFCI outlet, that sounds very expensive. Are you suggesting he run a separate home run for each outlet all tied in to one circuit?

 

I've done a ton of electrical work in the past including changing out entire panels and installing sub panels.

~Brian

 

Are you certified/licensed?

[Coral Hind]

NightOwl,

 

I would stick with the 20amp breaker with one home run to seperate GFCI outlets as Brian mentioned. This reduces the loss should the GFCI trip. Without knowing your load no one can really recommend a 15amp breaker over a 20 amp breaker but from what I have seen in the hobby. Most wish they had a 20amp over their current 15amp.

 

I would also not put the lighting on a GFCI outlet as Chubakah mentioned, especially if they are T-5s.

 

And before someone asks...I have 20 years of electrical experience. First as a journeyman lineman and then as a master electrician.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Coral Hind

[NightOwl]

Hey Gang,

Work was a bit busy today so I did not have time to respond and for some reason the forum did not notify me I had responses.

 

CHUBAKAH,

I meant GFCI sorry for the typo. I have not created a new electrical socket just yet . I have multiple tanks in my basement right now and would like to move two of the tanks to the 20 amp circuit. I know its overkill but I don't plan to max it out. Currently my basement is very close to being maxed out. Plugging in the vacuum cleaner sometimes trips the circuit breaker depending on what is on in my basement. With the 20 amp circuit breaker I plan to use no more than 80% of its capacity. A 20 amp breaker at 80% is only 1920 watts. I will be pulling 1090 watts in just lights in a few weeks. When you start thinking about big pumps and lights that 1920 watts gets eaten up fast. It will also take some of the load off my existing wiring which I think is a high priority.

I do not plan on putting the lights on the GFCI so I should be ok there. I am thinking of placing a pump on it for a closed loop that is in my pipeline of projects.

 

Buucca,

I checked on the price of the GFCI breakers and they are not as bad as I thought they would be so I worked them in my budget .

 

Brian Ward,

I currently have the 12-2 wire behind the wall and just have to decide how many boxes I want. If I add 6 sockets total that will be enough for miscellaneous things to plug in i.e. new ballast, new lights . I will look into the 20A Arc Fault breaker that you mentioned. I am trying to limit the number of GFCI sockets in my set up. I want to keep the wiring as simple as possible . I.E. not kill myself. I think the wife would like that a lot. I am not sure I want to wire each one separately so I may just stick to one. I think code or general rule is one per circuit /raceway or something like that I read last night.

 

Integral9,

I will look more into the 'plenum' wire. I do plan on doing an in-wall install behind the tank. I basically want a mini power center in my wall with a few sockets for my new toys that are coming.

 

 

CHUBAKAH,

Nothing really needs a 20 amp breaker, but I want to offload some things to a dedicated breaker just for my tanks. I have seen a few fish rooms that are pushing a 15amp breaker to the limits and I don't want to be there. It will also give me some room for the initial start up of ballasts and other items which draw a bit more at start-up then they normally run at. Heck I might even be able to hook up my vacuum cleaner in the finished basement area . I only plan on having one GFCI on the circuit. You can actually get the GFCI three pack pretty reasonable. I only needed one but the three-pack was a much better deal so that

[Brian Ward]

Since you are debating what I suggested, please explain why? Nothing, that I am aware of needs 20 amps to operate in a typical reef system. IMO your just adding more time before a small problem becomes larger.

 

@minimum $20 bucks a pop for a GFCI outlet, that sounds very expensive. Are you suggesting he run a separate home run for each outlet all tied in to one circuit?

 

Are you certified/licensed?

 

To answer your last question, I am not certified or licensed. I worked as an electrician's assistant for a summer during college and I have a degree in Computer Engineering - that degree includes about half of an electrical engineering degree including analog circuit design with both linear and nonlinear components. I am well-versed in much electrical theory and know some of the home and commercial best practices but I am not an expert on code.

 

I recommend a 20A breaker to allow for expansion of various items you may add to your system. I know I have bigger lights on my system than most, but my breakdown of higher current items includes 2 400W MH lights, 1 Icecap 660 ballast, 2 Reeflo Barracuda pumps, 1 Eheim 1260 (on the skimmer), 1/3 hp chiller, and I plan to add a 54W UV. Since you should never have a steady-state that exceeds 80% of the capacity for a safety shutoff, you have 16A to work with. That list comes close to 16A and if you look at the pull-up current draw for all of those items i'm pretty sure you'll see that the total surge current is close to 20A. I don't have all the numbers anymore, but that's what I remember. Add on a couple pumps for doing water changes or other maintenance (I use a mag-5 for water changes) and you're getting up there.

The primary function of a circuit breaker is to kill the current before the flow is so high that the wires will begin to melt and potentially cause a fire. If you run 12-2 wire, 20A is where your cutoff should be. They are rated for about 24A, so 20A is the standard size that goes with 12-2. If you choose to save some money and run 14-2, then you would go with a 15A breaker - again because the wire isn't capable of carrying more than that.

 

As far as not plugging lights into GFCI outlets or breakers, I've never heard of this and I have no idea why you wouldn't protect your lighting? I run all my lights (and everything else) on GFCI circuits with no problems. I know several other people that do this as well. Your lights are usually directly exposed to the water, so I would definitely protect them.

 

I would not home run each line, rather create a junction where the wire enters the box and then split off here to feed each GFCI outlet instead of connecting the first in the series with the feed to the box and then daisy-chaining the rest of the outlets. If you daisy-chain, then when 1 outlet trips, the whole box will trip (and anything else downstream). If you create the junction and use separate GFCI outlets, then you get only the outlet with the device causing the fault tripping off. That way your whole tank doesn't trip off because of a single fault.

 

I would also protect the system with Arc Fault breakers. These detect the "slow burn" condition that tends to cause fires. This happens in a variety of situations but there is never enough current to trip the breaker. The electronics in the breaker can detect this and kill the circuit in this condition. Using ArcFault breakers in combination with GFCI outlets is how DaveLin wired his new system to provide maximum protection for everything. He had a fire in his lights that would qualify as an arc fault condition so he wanted to be sure he avoided a fire next time.

 

As far as plenum wire - I've never heard of standard electrical wire being plenum rated? Romex is the standard line to run and as long as it's double covered (outer jacket with inner jackets wrapping the individual wires) you should be fine. Most reference to plenum rating is with respect to speaker wires, network wires, and other low-voltage wires that you may chooes to run in the wall. Originially, plenum rating was applied only to commercial spaces but maybe that has migrated to residential as well.

 

Bottom line (my understanding anyway): You size breakers for the smallest wire that is run off of them. This prevents wires from melting. You use GFCI outlets in places where there is water. This prevents your things and water from shocking you. You use AFCI breakers to protect circuits where arc faults could occur. The normal application is walls that you may hang pictures, etc so if you knick a wire and the electricity begins arcing you won't have a fire. With our tanks there are many high current areas that have potential for arcing so protecting with an AFCI breaker will create additional safety.

 

I hope this more fully explains my positions. As with many engineering design questions, there are always many variables and it's all about opinions. There is rarely a single right option, but the justification for various design decisions can be helpful.

[Coral Hind]

As far as plenum wire - I've never heard of standard electrical wire being plenum rated? Romex is the standard line to run and as long as it's double covered (outer jacket with inner jackets wrapping the individual wires) you should be fine. Most reference to plenum rating is with respect to speaker wires, network wires, and other low-voltage wires that you may chooes to run in the wall. Originially, plenum rating was applied only to commercial spaces but maybe that has migrated to residential as well.

 

You are right on the plenum wiring. Some comm wires and F/A cables are made with cheaper plastics that produce a lot of smoke, fumes and burn easy so the NEC required those cables to be made with better plastic jackets such as PVC. NM cables were already made with these more durable jackets so they really do not have a "plenum" lable on them.

 

Behind the wall would not be considered a plenum unless the space was used as part of your homes HVAC system.

[CHUBAKAH]

As far as not plugging lights into GFCI outlets or breakers, I've never heard of this and I have no idea why you wouldn't protect your lighting? I run all my lights (and everything else) on GFCI circuits with no problems. I know several other people that do this as well. Your lights are usually directly exposed to the water, so I would definitely protect them.

Most, not all of your MH, and T5 systems comes with a warning now to the effect of not installing them behind a GFCI breaker. I just got a new Ice Cap ballast that has that warning, and I wired up a new system a few weeks back that had a Tek lighting system that had the same warning.

 

The AFCI recommendation you make is a good one, and I do steer people in that direction as well. One can't be too safe.

 

As far as running a large junction for say nine outlets, that would not meet local codes. I'd have to look that one up, but "I think" the max is like 4.

 

Had we all known this was going to be set up for more than one tank, I think the steering would have been more towards running a separate sub panel with numerous circuits. It's a much cleaner way of doing it, and you have a lot more control of how much current you allow each particular piece of equipment to take on. It also allows for future add on's down the road.

 

Sorry to sort of derail the thread. I am a licensed, and certified contractor, and am very by the book when it comes to local codes.

 

I also stayed at a Holiday Express over the weekend.

:wink:

[davelin315]

As Brian said, I wired a subpanel off a 50 AMP breaker. This subpanel holds 3 20 AMP arc fault breakers. Each breaker is wired to 3 independent GFCI outlets. Reduandancy and safety without tripping my whole system when one thing goes wrong is the name of the game. Each of my breakers, by the way, is close to being maxed out should everything fire up at the same time. For instance, my first breaker has 4 400W lamps on it, each ballast being over 4 amps apiece. Also, I run my 1/3 HP chiller and 2 barracudas off of another breaker, as well as an OM 8-way. The last one powers my skimmer and smaller hardware. This one has room on it for more things to be plugged in so I typically will use this for any routine things that need to be done. I can also safely plug in a piece of smaller equipment to any of the breakers without fear of overloading the circuit and tripping it. There's a lot of detail on this in my build thread.

[NightOwl]

Well I got out to Lowes and Home Depot tonight. Finding a 3 gang socket plate is a pain in the rear. Neither place had it and I will have to check the Home Depot closer to me or an actual electrical lighing store. I was able to pick up the 20 amp Arc Fault Breaker tonight along with two 3 gang boxes. In the process I forgot the actuall outlets so I will look for a contractor pack tomorrow for those.

 

CHUBAKAH,

Are you saying that I can not have the two 3 gang boxes (6 sockets total) on a single 20 amp circuit and still be within the code limitations? Or is that referring to using multiple GFCI sockets?

 

davelin315,

Hopefully I won't get to the point where I need a subpanel just for the tanks. I am hoping the off-load will help. I have plans for adding another 20 amp breaker down the line but its not in the immediate future.

 

Thanks

[CHUBAKAH]

CHUBAKAH,

Are you saying that I can not have the two 3 gang boxes (6 sockets total) on a single 20 amp circuit and still be within the code limitations? Or is that referring to using multiple GFCI sockets?

Thanks

No, you can have up to four boxes with 3 plugs each, and you are up to code.

 

I know Home Depot only covers up to two plugs, while Lowes normally has the three gang covers.

 

I was referring to the junction that one would have to create to wire each plug independently all to one home run that Brian was suggesting. While in theory his idea sounds good, it's just not to code doing it that way with that may plugs. Again, I am not positive, but I think you can have up to four lines tied together.

[davelin315]

Well I got out to Lowes and Home Depot tonight. Finding a 3 gang socket plate is a pain in the rear. Neither place had it and I will have to check the Home Depot closer to me or an actual electrical lighing store. I was able to pick up the 20 amp Arc Fault Breaker tonight along with two 3 gang boxes. In the process I forgot the actuall outlets so I will look for a contractor pack tomorrow for those.

 

CHUBAKAH,

Are you saying that I can not have the two 3 gang boxes (6 sockets total) on a single 20 amp circuit and still be within the code limitations? Or is that referring to using multiple GFCI sockets?

 

davelin315,

Hopefully I won't get to the point where I need a subpanel just for the tanks. I am hoping the off-load will help. I have plans for adding another 20 amp breaker down the line but its not in the immediate future.

 

Thanks

I needed the subpanel only because my existing panels are the wrong type to host AFCI breakers. I needed a panel that could accommodate those.

 

You can daisy chain the sockets together, by the way, as long as you use the wiring sockets that are covered by tape saying don't use (they are covered so that you don't mistake them for GFCI protected wiring sockets).

[NightOwl]

Well for the first time in over a year or so I was able to run the vacuum in my basement without plugging it in the back room or having it trip the basement breaker. I have successfully added 2 - 20 amp breakers into my existing panel. I probably cut more holes in the wall than needed but I am happy to report I did not electrocute myself in the process! After a lot of reading I was able to wire everything up with only one incident. I will try to get around to posting some pictures of the new control panel in my wall after I repair the 2 x 6 foot hole I made. I added 7 outlets and 2 switches but it works for me. For four days now the tank has been on its own circuits.

[Coral Hind]

Congratulations!!

 

So are you going to share the "incident"?

[NightOwl]

Coral Hind,

LOL. The incident occured when I put the second breaker in the box. The green light was on my GFCI but none of the outlets worked. I plugged in my little circuit tester and it told me I had an open hot. So I unwired the breaker and checked my wiring and re-did the wiring in the three gang box and wa-la. It worked when I tested it again. My "Black and Decker - The Complete Guide to Home Wiring" book was a great help. Full of pictures and as long as you understand the basics it's easy. I did not even cut the power off to the house .