lanman June 27, 2008 Author Share June 27, 2008 Nitrates are killing your corals. You should do some big water changes to get everything back in line. So, the nitrates are killing my corals, which is causing nitrates... and doing 'some big water changes' in a 240-gallon tank is probably beyond my capabilities. I'm guessing once enough corals have died, it will balance out... I have started moving some of my more favorite corals into my other tanks. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 27, 2008 Share June 27, 2008 I'm guessing once enough corals have died, it will balance out... Huh? I don't understand the logic in this. It won't balance out because the nitrates won't go away unless they are used up or removed. Things will continue to die off if the nitrates remain high. It has to be you doing the balancing of them. Also, I wouldn't stop and say that nitrates are killing your corals. I don't know that it will get to the extent of what you have going on that quickly. Is there something else going on in your tank? I would look at nitrates as one factor in the whole, not the entire problem. What corals do you have in this system and are any flourishing? Any clams or anything like that that are seemingly happy? Or softies or lps that seem to enjoy dirty water? Have you tossed in any xenia to see if they thrive in this tank? My money is that something else is also going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freezerburn June 27, 2008 Share June 27, 2008 besides that, have you looked for parasites? Redbugs got pretty violent with a friend of mines tank till he treated it. So yeah I'd start running large amounts of carbon just incase it some kind of toxin something let out when it died and water changes. Doing this saved me from RTN well I also dipped my corals in Lugols Solution. Hope you can figure out what's causing this or at least stop it by doing the water changes etc. I might be available Saturday night and definitely all day Sunday if you need some extra muscle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore June 27, 2008 Share June 27, 2008 IME, very few corals, even "dirty water" softies, thrive in 50ppm nitrate. Yes, alkalinity or the Ca/Alk ratio might be helping to irritate that acro with the bleached tips, but I am still convinced that the high nitrates are 90% of the problem. Bob, you don't necessarily have to change large volumes at once. A bunch of smaller water changes will reduce nitrates just as well, it will just take longer. I would start doing them as quickly as you can make water, and don't stop till nitrates are < 10ppm. If the nitrate problem returns, it's a sign that either your nutrient export isn't keeping up with feeding, or enough aerobic (nitrifying) bacteria are present that they are converting fish waste to nitrate before the skimmer can remove the larger organic molecules. This is why wet-drys and the like are generally frowned upon in reef tanks. Your filter socks could be responsible here; a lot of tank volume passes over them before it gets to the skimmer, hence the term "nitrate factory". Solutions to nitrate production include a deep sand bed, either in the tank, sump, or a remote bucket/barrel. More complex but very effective are the nitrate reactors like Dan makes that use sulfur. Growing macroalgae also works, but if you are removing phosphate via GFO, then the algae will be growth limited by phosphate so nitrate uptake will similarly be limited. I think the simplest and most effective way to get your tank back under control is to just start doing water changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 27, 2008 Share June 27, 2008 I'm on board with Justin on this, but I do think that there are other things there as well. Was your nitrate always at 50 ppm? I thought you said at one point that it was down to 25 ppm, which isn't great, but isn't as bad as 50. The fact that it has jumped up significantly and very quickly is indicative of a die off of major proportions, but from your pictures it doesn't look that bad. What about the sand? I think that you used new sand in your tank. The refugium? What's in there? Perhaps it's a problem with what you added in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman June 27, 2008 Author Share June 27, 2008 I am doing 20-gallon water changes as fast as I can make water and get it done. That's about as much as I can handle at a time. I also have to use some for evaporation in all of the other tanks, and water changes in them, etc. Carbon - sounds like a good idea; just hope I don't bleach the corals that ARE still in good shape. The few softies I have in there are doing fine. The one clam is doing fine. Valida tri-color is thriving. Montipora's are not happy - any of them (except the sunset monti - which seems fine) Acro. nana - white tips. Micromussa - not well - moved it. Chalices are fine Green slimer - tips dying off Leishman Red table acro - thriving Favia's are fine Purple Bonsai - tips dying off - moved it. Assorted Sun Polyps - fine One millepora is dying - another has just a single white tip. Fish are fine Snails are fine Crabs are fine etc... etc... you get the idea. Yes - the nitrates were at 25 before I added the refugium. The refugium is growing macro's nicely - and I put a 6" sand bed in it, just in case the fact the gold-headed sleeper goby tearing up the sand all the time in the 240 is making it ineffective for nitrate removal. Yes - it was mostly new sand in December; seeded with a few cups from my other tanks. Rocks were all 'experienced', and water was about 25% from the other tanks, 75% new. So - for now, carbon and as many water changes as I can do. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&Fmgr June 28, 2008 Share June 28, 2008 I had higher nitrates cause a similiar problem in my dispaly at the store. run carbon, and do water changes....try and get some sand from someone else's DSB. A product called nite-out will drop no3 overnight. Sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman June 28, 2008 Author Share June 28, 2008 I had higher nitrates cause a similiar problem in my dispaly at the store. run carbon, and do water changes....try and get some sand from someone else's DSB. A product called nite-out will drop no3 overnight. Sean Will be doing my third 20-gallon water change in two days in about 10 minutes... will be stopping by Home Depot this evening - I need a hose barb to hook up my media reactor; female connector - naturally I have a male and no straight adapter. I would think that after almost 7 months, that my sand would be doing about as good a job as it can. I might need MORE sand - my sleeper goby sifts pretty deeply into my 4" sand bed. I have an undisturbed 6" bed in the refugium (20-tall) - seeded with sand from all of my tanks, but still only running for a month. Nite-out II is for ammonia and nitrites: Microbe-lift NITE-OUT II is Specially formulated for Rapid Ammonia and Nitrite Reduction. I hope the water changes and carbon get things back to normal again... Thanks! bob bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore June 29, 2008 Share June 29, 2008 Bob, you should get one of those $5 pepsi barrels and keep 55 gal of salt water on hand at all times. Three if you have room. Salt water keeps indefinitely if kept closed. You never know when you'll have a need for a major water change (like a heater explosion etc) and they would help you in cases like this too where you need to do large changes but not necessarily in an emergency timeframe. Unfortunately, part of owning a big tank also means dedicating more resources (i.e., space) to maintenance and emergency management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman June 29, 2008 Author Share June 29, 2008 (edited) Bob, you should get one of those $5 pepsi barrels and keep 55 gal of salt water on hand at all times. Three if you have room. Salt water keeps indefinitely if kept closed. You never know when you'll have a need for a major water change (like a heater explosion etc) and they would help you in cases like this too where you need to do large changes but not necessarily in an emergency timeframe. Unfortunately, part of owning a big tank also means dedicating more resources (i.e., space) to maintenance and emergency management. Yeah... I generally have 30 gallons of salt water - because I have a 32-gallon trash can for mixing it. And another 20 gallons of filtered water - because I have a 20-gallon trash can for that. Problem is measuring how much water I've taken OUT at once... I don't have a 50-gallon container to siphon into. bob Oh... did a nitrate test after third water change - and I'd say it is now closer to 25 than 50, intead of closer to 50 than 25. Hopefully by tomorrow evening, I'll be down to 25 at least. Edited June 29, 2008 by lanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore June 30, 2008 Share June 30, 2008 Make a mark for each 30 gallons you remove on an inconspicuous place on your tank (or use tape etc). Then you can create a siphon hose that has a piece of hard pipe that extends down to those marks when hung on the tank rim. If you don't have a drain or toilet below the tank level to siphon into, find a used mag-12 class pump to pump it up into a suitable drain. The pvc "hook" will keep the siphon in the tank while you maneuver the hose, and will automatically stop when the correct volume has been removed. You can use the mag-12 in reverse to refill the tank from the barrels, if you use some PVC flex tube with unions. I did this with my old tank using 55g barrels, with two marks (at 55g and 110g) for either one or two barrel-fulls. I could change 110g of water in 10 minutes, it made maintenance super easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 June 30, 2008 Share June 30, 2008 Bob, I have a 125 gallon reservoir in my driveway. If you want to borrow it for a 1/2 tank water change, or even smaller ones, it's currently empty (needs a good rinse out, though). I think I still have parts to plumb it to 1" PVC fittings, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman June 30, 2008 Author Share June 30, 2008 Thanks for the ideas... I do have a drain - it drains under the house, where there is a sump pump if necessary. I am aware of the 'diminishing returns' on small water changes - but I'll eventually get there. If I assume nitrates were 40, then the first 10% water change would lower them by 4. Then 3.6. Then 3.3, etc... I should know in another couple of water changes if I'm gaining or losing ground to whatever caused the nitrates in the first place. Always hard to tell with a test that relies on 'eyeballing' a color. I have a spare 40 gallon tank I could mix water in - cracked, but holds water. But I can only make about 30 gallons/day - so the 20-gallon water changes work out pretty good. I expect to have enough mixed up to do the 4th water change tonight. I can't say that I see corals recovering for sure - but at least one monti cap does look better already. If this turns out to be a pure nitrate problem - I can certainly point out the symptoms. One of them is that Monti Caps tend to lose color between the polyps, and the polyps seems to extend further out than usual. That, and the dead 'tips' on some acro's. No new corals have developed any symptoms in the last few days. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore July 1, 2008 Share July 1, 2008 Be careful with relying on the sump pump to move excess salt water. It could rust and fail when you really need it during heavy rain etc. Glad to hear that you might be starting to see improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman July 1, 2008 Author Share July 1, 2008 Be careful with relying on the sump pump to move excess salt water. It could rust and fail when you really need it during heavy rain etc. Glad to hear that you might be starting to see improvement. I hadn't considered that... the pump would not be sitting in salt water... it's a cavern under there; has to fill up from heavy rains before the pump gets wet. BUT - the salt-water siphoning into it might be splashing on the sump pump. I'll have to make sure that's not happening. It looks more improved today... a couple of monti's that were dying have colored back up a good bit. Running the carbon has already visibly improved my water clarity - and I thought it was pretty clear before. Killed a few dozen aiptasia tonight, too. Mixed up another batch of water - but want it to aerate a little more - so will do the next water change tomorrow. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman July 4, 2008 Author Share July 4, 2008 (edited) I think I've done 5 20-gallon water changes in the last week - and last night I managed to do 30. Corals are looking much better; nothing new looks damaged or sick, and most of the ones that were sick are looking much improved. My somewhat biased eyeball says nitrates are back down to 25 now... or at least very close to it. I'm almost ready to declare that I know the symptoms of high nitrates! bob Edited July 4, 2008 by lanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Reefer July 4, 2008 Share July 4, 2008 (edited) Congratulations Bob, I'm glad ya got things back on track. My goal is to keep the nitrates below 10. Since I added my refugium with DSB, the readings have been below 2.5 & usally 0 if I feed the fish right. Edited July 4, 2008 by Highland Reefer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman July 4, 2008 Author Share July 4, 2008 Congratulations Bob, I'm glad ya got things back on track. My goal is to keep the nitrates below 10. Since I added my refugium with DSB, the readings have been below 2.5 & usally 0 if I feed the fish right. Hopefully my refugium will 'kick in' and start dropping mine like that. In the meantime - multiple weekly water changes are in my future. Most of the corals in the tank are looking much better; which things tend to do after water changes. In this case probably both the trace elements and the nitrate reductions. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Reefer July 4, 2008 Share July 4, 2008 Do you have a DSB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman July 5, 2008 Author Share July 5, 2008 Do you have a DSB? In my tank - I have about 4" of sand. In the refugium, I have about 6" of sand. And an assortment of macro-algae that is growing very well. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Reefer July 5, 2008 Share July 5, 2008 That should work. Just needs some more time. You have a larger system which will take a bit longer. In my refugium the chaeto is not growing very fast, but the bubble aglae is going crazy. I don't know if this is normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman July 5, 2008 Author Share July 5, 2008 That should work. Just needs some more time. You have a larger system which will take a bit longer. In my refugium the chaeto is not growing very fast, but the bubble aglae is going crazy. I don't know if this is normal. Green bubble algae only grows where Sally Lightfoot can't reach it (or maybe emerald crabs). My frag tank was inundated with the stuff. Put in a couple of Sally's, and a couple of emeralds - and within a few weeks, it was all gone. Tough to do in a refugium if you actually want it to be a 'refugium' (no predators). bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanman September 2, 2008 Author Share September 2, 2008 Without giving any hints (water parameters, etc.) - - any ideas on what could be causing the 'tips' of certain corals (3-4 of them) to lose tissue and turn white?? Thanks, bob Nitrates reduced to around 25... After a couple months: But.... I still can't get my nitrates to where I want them. Even the remote DSB in my refugium (over two months running), and the huge amount of caulerpa growing in the refugium - can't seem to keep it down. I am still doing minimum weekly 20-gallon water changes; usually twice weekly. Latest attempt - removed the filter socks. Even though I changed them every 4-5 days, who knows... bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Reefer September 2, 2008 Share September 2, 2008 I would of thought the nitrates would be down to 0 by now. How many gallons is your refugium? The only thing I can compare to is my system. I have the 55 g. Pepsi barrel refugium with 6.5" of DSB. I have my lights on my refugium 24/7. My nitrates started at 80. One month later, the nitrates dropped to under 5. Now they are at 0. I am feeding my dwarf lionfish silversides, which he does not get all the pieces. No effect on my nitrates. I think the only other thing I am doing different is dosing vinegar with my kalk. Dosing vinegar will drive a large anaerobic bacteria population in your deep sand bed which will help in braking down the nitrates. Might be worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Reefer September 2, 2008 Share September 2, 2008 This month's Reef Keeping Magazine has an article on Dosing Vodka to reduce nitrates and phosphates: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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