lletellier October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 I have been reading up on sand beds and I want to make sure I have this straight. My understanding is that if you only have a 1" sandbed pretty much all it does is cover your glass and up your nitrates after a period of time. If you have a deep sandbed 3+" the bottom 2+" will help lower your nitrate levels because of anerobic breakdown?? I'm in the process of setting up my 20 gallon and I want to know what the ideal depth would be. Also, if i'm using sand out of the bad should I do anything to it before I put it in my tank?? After I get it in I can just seed it with a cup of sand from another tank correct?? also wanted to ask if anyone has a picture of a tank with a black sand bed... just curious to see what it would look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discretekarma October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 I'm glad you asked that since I will be adding sand to my frag tank tomorrow and was wondering what to add. I was thinking since the back glass is black that I may use black,white, or pink fine grain carib-sea sand in a bag. I've heard if you have bigger pieces of sand that it will get stuff in between and cause Nitrates to raise so it'll probably be better to get the really fine sand like I'm getting. I should have picked it up at BRK while I was there today but didn't think about it. I think I am going to take someone to Scales tomorrow so I may pick some up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoozilla October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 (edited) I suggest Carib-Sea "Seaflor Special Grade" reef sand. Between 3"-6" bed should be adequate. Edited October 26, 2007 by zoozilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lletellier October 26, 2007 Author Share October 26, 2007 I have a bad of southdown so i'm not worried about anything other than depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoozilla October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 The infamous Southdown . At least 3" should be fine. By the way, James picked up you Paly frag last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadgets October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 Bare-Bottom All the way!!! I'm glad you asked that since I will be adding sand to my frag tank tomorrow and was wondering what to add. I was thinking since the back glass is black that I may use black,white, or pink fine grain carib-sea sand in a bag. I've heard if you have bigger pieces of sand that it will get stuff in between and cause Nitrates to raise so it'll probably be better to get the really fine sand like I'm getting. I should have picked it up at BRK while I was there today but didn't think about it. I think I am going to take someone to Scales tomorrow so I may pick some up there. I suggest no sand for a frag tank. Makes it easier to keep clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoozilla October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 Bare-Bottom All the way!!!I suggest no sand for a frag tank. Makes it easier to keep clean. May actually be going that route soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yauger October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 May actually be going that route soon... I agree with having a bare bottom tank... I have been constantly trying to add more flow in my nano but have stopped dead in my tracks because of sand storms... I might be converting soon enough... More flow in the display is key for coral health in my opinion... you can always add a bucket of sand to create a remote sand bed later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax7774 October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 bare bottom tanks are like public nudity on a street corner. It just ain't right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 bare bottom tanks are like public nudity on a street corner. It just ain't right! hahaha. I agree. As long as you don't have the sugar sized sand, you should be able to have plenty of flow. I've got 2 6101s and 2 6055s in my 92gal and my sand pretty much stays put. Its the carib-sea stuff from BRK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lletellier October 26, 2007 Author Share October 26, 2007 so bare bottom just so you can have more flow and no sandstorms?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yauger October 26, 2007 Share October 26, 2007 so bare bottom just so you can have more flow and no sandstorms?? yup, the one and only advantage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite October 27, 2007 Share October 27, 2007 (edited) I thought it was supposed to be less than 2 or more than 4. Edited October 27, 2007 by treesprite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtC October 27, 2007 Share October 27, 2007 You might want to read Toonen's controlled experiment. Came really close to saying it doesn't matter at all. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature Which of course I found last night after rigging a separate DSB container to install next to my sump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 We did not test bare bottom tanks, but the data clearly suggest that the shallower the sediment, the higher the mortality rate, and you can't get much shallower than a bare bottom tank! That's a quote from the article - I just thought it would be interesting to note, given the discussions about bare bottoms here. I would like to know what other people think about the experiments. Makes me all confused - it looks like they are saying there is no difference as far as nitrate goes, but then looks like they are saying there IS a difference in DSB and SSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NSC October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 I have to be honest that quote is truly interesting because I have a wrasse that continually moves my own sandbed and if the chances are higher that he will cause a crash vs if he wasn't in my tank(I have a SSB) than I would love to dispose of him(via trading/WTB forum or the like) than keep him around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discretekarma October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 Does that answer your question Lance? Me neither. To me it sounds like everybody has their own opinion on the sand bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lletellier October 28, 2007 Author Share October 28, 2007 Does that answer your question Lance? Me neither. To me it sounds like everybody has their own opinion on the sand bed. yeah sounds like the sanbed is up in the air... so i'm gonna go with the one thing I can figure out on my own... what looks best! lol I think i'll probably go with 3" so I have sand to cover the bottom and it will hold my aquascaping. plus i'm gonna get a lot of nassassurausususus snails (no idea how to spell that but everyone knows what i'm talking about) so they will need some sand to play in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 If you're going to have a deep sand bed, make it deep enough where it won't be disturbed for the bottom 2-3". I've seen where people put some egg crating in the sand about 3" off the bottom to prevent the sand from being disturbed. My own personal thoughts are that for a DSB you need at least 5-6". Otherwise, if you want a regular sand bed, just make sure it gets stirred up often. I'm going with sugar sized sand and am waiting to see how deep the 14 bags I have will get me. If I need more, I might go with more, otherwise I may just leave it as is. The real point of my sand bed will be to raise the bottom up a few inches as it's really deep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Pollman October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 DSBs are a blessing and a curse: I think they provide a great buffer (and help) for the filtration system, but, when they are in the tank you are stuck with them - and they do not last forever. My tank has been up for over 3 years and has a DSB. When I disturb the sand (rearranging things) the "crud" that gets kicked up is amazing - and it stinks just like a sewer! Unfortunately, the only way to fix it is to completely remove it - which is way too much work for me right now as I have 500lbs of sand. When I do tear down the tank (and replace with a new one) I will have a DSB, but external to the tank. That way, with the proper plumbing, I can take it off line and clean/replace it when necessary - while still getting all the benefits of bare bottom and a DSB. The whole controversy of DSB vs BB seems a bit silly to me: we want to get every bit of crud/bad-stuff out of our tanks any way we can. Using EVERY tool in our kitbag that we can (afford) seems like the ONLY real solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtC October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 (edited) Yeah, it's a shame Toonen didn't think to test 'no sand bed'. Would have been really interesting if THAT gave the same results as DSB and SSB. In this month's Coral, Calfo suggests using an external DSB. The advantage is that there won't be any catastrophic overturns in the bed that release the anoxic chemicals. DSB critters don't need light... Pump a small amount of water (outflow from my fluidized reactor) into the bucket and it drains back into the sump. That's what I was making out of a small trash can (salt bucket didn't fit ), when I found Toonen's article. Reference: October/November issue of Coral feature - subject is Sand Bed Filters. Sand bed filter article by Calfo, and two by Shimek. Edited October 28, 2007 by ArtC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 Does that answer your question Lance? Me neither. To me it sounds like everybody has their own opinion on the sand bed. How long have you been in this hobby? The sand debate has been going on longer than I've been doing this stuff. My sand bed is about 17years old. It's arragonite and I used a mix of grain sizes and ranges from 2-4". Don't use 2 part and kalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshnarw October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 That's a quote from the article - I just thought it would be interesting to note, given the discussions about bare bottoms here. I would like to know what other people think about the experiments. Makes me all confused - it looks like they are saying there is no difference as far as nitrate goes, but then looks like they are saying there IS a difference in DSB and SSB. Using their statistical tests, and given the number of organisms that..."had the opportunity to die", you could basically make up anything. Since their statistical tests were based on the mean, it is more likely that one tank crashed (maybe the fish died after leaving for the day, and took out several other animals before they made it back the next day). Remember that those tests were on 3 gallon aquariums...one death can easily lead to others. If this happened, the tests were biased towards that single tank, and led to their statement. Given the very small number of test tanks for each parameter, I'd confidently throw out their statement about shallower tank = more mortality as statistically unsound. As for the rest of the two articles - the only thing they've shown that can be taken as *possibly* a real conclusion is that there are no advantages to the plenum method. The rest is either within statistical uncertainty, or poorly controlled (i.e. phosphate and alkalinity measurements). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gadgets October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 so bare bottom just so you can have more flow and no sandstorms?? yup, the one and only advantage... Nope there is more than that. It gives you complete control over your tank. I allows you to run it as dirty or as clean as u like. BB works and it works well, but needs to be done right in order to make it work. The only disadvantage is some people don't like the way it looks. But other than that it is just as successful as DSB or SSB. I am a firm believer that a reefer is what makes a tank a success or a failure. If you put the time and effort you will have a successful tank. Those that don't continue to have problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treesprite October 28, 2007 Share October 28, 2007 Does the thing about a DSB needing to be so many cubic inches apply across the board or is it relative to tank size? Maybe the systems were simply too small to allow observance of DSB action. I'm inclined the researchers are biased against bare bottom, hence didn't research (going on their comment about fish death). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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