SPS Bacterial Infection help?

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@ReefdUp so this morning this whole thing took an interesting turn.... before my lights come on the fish are awake for like an hour or so from natural light. 100% saw the angelfish nip 2 of the corals not doing so hot right now. I put nori in the tank and it seems to have worked in distracting it. I usually would put nori before I start working and later in the evening. My guess is the nori isnt there and it grazed on corals. I've lost quite a few pieces slowly over the past 6 months or so and I think this has finally answered it. It makes sense because it was just 1 or 2 corals at a time doing bad not the whole tank. Now I get to rehome a potters angelfish to my frag tank/qt full of soft corals.... 

Edited April 11, 2021 by smokythemattman@gmail.com

[ReefdUp]

Ohhh wow. Well, I'm sorry that's probably it, but I'm glad you found the culprit before taking drastic measures. Hopefully that's the end of all the frustration and damaged coral.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Well I thought I had a lead. Then bam out of no where a large plating monti I had growing like a weed has the weird fuzz with stringyness coming off if it eating away at the flesh randomly. Was just fine this morning and multiple 1 inch in diameter chunks are gone. Never saw the angelfish pick at that one and I've been staring at the tank for probably 8+ hours while I worked today. I am beginning to suspect the angelfish nips these corals and there is some strain of bad bacteria that takes hold. Any kind of damage gets caused and the SPS just immediately go downhill. Its very bizarre. I think over the next few weeks I may sell off my SPS and turn the tank into a soft coral and anemone plague tank and let them run amok lol. It sucks when things die when you know why. But this is extremely frustrating as I cannot pinpoint why this keeps happening. Yet again vast majority of other corals including those next to it are healthy and growing... 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Really my last guess is flow. Another theme is its the larger colonies. Maybe when they get stressed from the angelfish nipping or whatever they dont have enough flow and the bad bacteria is able to basically sit and multiply? 

[ranger]

aquabiomics.com.............around 50/100 bucks for a bacterial picture of your water will show some known coral pathagens if present.........he is on R2R lots of info there.......this test is in my opinion the first step then a icp if needed because the known coral bacterial strains that cause these problems will show up on it.

[ReefdUp]

In that case, yeah, you may want to consider treating. Research dosing cipro. I've done it with great results, but it's reaaaaally experimental at this point.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@ranger I am going to send a test in next week because at this point I have no good guesses left. Appreciate it

[ranger]

Let us know the results if possible would be great if more coral keepers did this test to verify they are not spreading certain strains to other reefers.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@ranger I agree I am quite curious. My tanks only have one coral I got from online sources (my 1st coral) all the rest have been from Wamas members. I've seen others tales of tank wips recently. I like to think I know mostly what I am doing lol but Ive seen some folks on here with remarkable systems get baffled by a bunch of mysterious deaths. Its led to one of my theories that something has changed in our source waters that RODI doesnt filter out and ICP doesn't capture. I tested this little theory of the stressed coral + bad bacteria = dead theory with a piece of the big red monti I had. When i fragged it I made some like really bad half cuts on purpose into a little 2x2 piece. I didn't shred it but I made sure to leave it a couple of little damaged areas on the flesh. I was out of town yesterday and that piece entirely died when I got back today. The frags where I made clean breaks were fine. A few months ago I had some success dipping into an antibiotic mixture but it wasnt 100% it just seemed better than normal. This is all so bizarre because I picked up a couple corals from a tank breakdown one I believe is a pink Cadillac it was pretty rough and its recovered really well the past month. That frag that shouldve died recovers no issue while a 3 year old 10+ inch colony will just up and quit. Been a bizarre past few months for SPS in my tank lol 

[ranger]

You can follow EMEYER on PMWMAS or r2r as i mentioned before one thing about a bacterial parasite he test for is it only becomes a problem as nitrates rise...He has found 2 out of 20 reef tanks tested to contain the bacteria..............Lots of things in our tank can carry it including aiptasia/palys/goni"s/amemones...etc.

Might explain why some SPS tanks can have high nitrates with no problems while others rtn...etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I am still at a total loss about my issues. SPS continue to slowly decline. I believe I am about to sell my last remaining large colony of SPS as I dont think I could stomach watching that one die. The colonies I have fragged have been hit or miss with their status. 

 

My parameters havent really changed at all. Temp is 80

Salinity 1.025

Nitrates are 1

Phosphates are .14 (tried to raise them a bit thinking maybe nutrients were low) 

Alk is at 7.2 

Ca 420

 

I even bought a new RODI a few months back. Anyone had anything an ICP test doesnt show cause problems I should test for? 

 

Ive stopped water changes, I was doing some small ones weekly to try the dilution is the solution approach but nothing changed.

 

Ive kept some carbon in and cuprasorb. 

 

Angelfish occasionally nips but it really only goes for the algae on the dead tips. 

 

Im still wondering if my flow isnt enough? That is really my last guess at this point.

[ReefdUp]

Did you get your test results?

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I slacked on sending it out was trying to wait a few weeks to see if anything else changed. I think the test results should come back by end of this week or next week. Not the best picture but here you can see a little bit of the tips stripping/peeling off. That colony grew to that size from being smaller than the 4 inch tile it is on. In 2 years.... only thing thats changed for it was it gets slightly more indirect flow as far as positioning. The hawkfish used to sit on it daily and it never cared even lol. As soon as that thing takes a turn for the worst I am moving it. Refuse to kill such a big colony 

 

[ReefdUp]

If it was your flow, I'd expect the base to go on such a large colony before the tips (unless there is direct flow on them). The tips should be receiving the most flow.

[YHSublime]

You're 100% sure that whatever you're using to test calcium and alkalinity is calibrated properly? Have you tried using another method for a few days to see if the results match? 

[ReefdUp]

And nitrates?? Your nutrients are still a bit off where I think is appropriate. 

 

If your alk test is off, but your nitrates are really at 1, then tip burn is entirely possible. I'd raise your nitrates (which should lower your phosphates). I think you've said you've had someone else check your alk, but you may want to again.

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I have 2 Hannah alk test kits and both come between .1 of each other. I suspected bad reagants early on and replaced some. I was double checkin myself with reefescapes and would be within .1-.2 of my Hannahs. Now nitrates is something I suspect could be the problem. My chaeto and algae has stopped growing and theyve lingered between 1-2. I wonder if they are to low. How fast do you think I could raise them up? Also good point about the flow. Its not like the colonies die from the inside out which I learned the hard way is usually lack of flow. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by smokythemattman@gmail.com

[YHSublime]

Personally, I'd rule out all those things first, or make sure that is the issue. For less than $20 you can get a Salifert Nitrate kit. 

 

in the meantime, I'd unplug the skimmer for a few days if you're wanting to do something while you wait. 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@YHSublime I never ran a skimmer on this tank hehe. I dont really have a high bioload and I was gona keep an eye on nutrients. They always were pretty low and manageable. The nitrates though has me wondering. Some days the corals that are struggling do worse day to day then other times with nothing really changing. It is really bizarre. I wondered and still do if my changing levels of algae maybe have been causing nutrient swings that sneak in between testing. But nothing has grown the past month really. Micro or macro algae or SPS corals.  I have slowly added some neo nitro throughout the day to try to get it to the 3-4 range. I double checked equipment even tho the ICP test showed nothing bad in that department and double checked thermometers. All looks good there. I may just massively up my carbon sitting in the sump. At this point there not much to lose in terms of SPS. Its just so weird that many corals and still some SPS thrive while others 1 by 1 or sometimes 2 at a time just waste away. Unless those were just the hardier ones. Which could be the case as the bigger older colonies just now in the past few weeks got worse. Like people grow red plating montis in just about anything... same with green slimer. H-E-double hockey sticks i grew them to large colonies from frags in a couple years. Just cant seem to figure out what Im missing. The not knowing why is the worst. If I dosed wrong or a heater died at least id have closure and learn. 

[ReefdUp]

So, this has been going on since, what... Feb? What have you done to rule out/ fix the problem? I think best with lists. What else am I missing from below?

 

Changes made:

- Added cuprasorb

- Stopped water changes

 

Other things suggested:

- Increase nitrates

- Remove angelfish

- Treat for bacteria (awaiting test results)

- ICP found low Ca and some Al

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Thats a good idea lemme try listing it out. Yes probably since end of Jan/Feb is when it took a turn. One of the main "things" was the algae in the tank was due for some removal. Wasnt an infestation but the glass needed a clean on some sides. 

 

I never really like doing large water changes or changes. I did a small cleaning and removed some algae. Lets say a 5% water change. A couple corals probably were on the decline around here like 1 or 2. Chalked it up to just an isolated incident or something since so many others were fine. 

 

A couple more pieces started looking rough. 

Double checked refractometers

Double checked heaters

Bought new reagants for hannah testers for alk, phos and nitrates 

New reagants and old tested similar

Removed a bit more algae thinking maybe low nutrients

 

1 by 1 a few more declined

Started doing more frequent small water changes, ICP test, suspected angelfish,

Rechecked everything same as above

I ordered a new RODI 5 stage. 

New mixing bucket 

Checked equipment for rust

No stray voltage

Lighting settings same (i debated tuning them down a bit but didnt want the stress)

 

Once i got ICP test i ordered iodine strontium and cuprasorb for the aluminum

Dosed more ca

Dosed 1/2 recommended doses for I and SR

Added some aminos

Around this time a little over a month ago Id say things started to get worse I was still doing small water changes every week or so

Stopped doing them

 

Past week or so Ive rechecked my test kits and now ordered the bacteria test. SPS still slowly deteriorating. 

 

Performed 5% watee change. 

Double checked thermometers/heater

Upped feedings and such to increase phosphate

Algae hasnt been growing nor corals

About to add much more carbon have not much more to lose for SPS 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Always wear gloves in tank 

No airborne contaminantes we dont even use air fresheners and the tank is quite isolated

I have glued frags but I use the same IC gel alot of us use 

[ReefdUp]

What algae is growing? When you remove it, it sounds like there's a correlation to things declining? Can you get a pic?

 

And adding phosphates is not what you need - they're high enough. You're nitrate limited. High phosphates alone can be enough to mess with sps.

 

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I would say 90% of it is gha, the normal film algae and sometimes cyano. I wont say I kept a spotless tank but my display wasnt a refugium either haha. It does that is why another culprit is changing nutrient levels from if I did to large of algae removal or if it dying has spiked nutrients or something else. It really hasnt been growing which is bizarre.

 

Serious note would you have room for this red robin colony in your system? I refuse to lose that one or watch it go downhill and Id like it to go somewhere itll carry on and can get fragged up and shared. The rest of the colony is in great shape besides the tips. H-E-double hockey sticks the polyps still extend. 

 

I plan on slowly bring phosphates back to around .5 and holding them there. Ive suspected all along this is why softies are exploded but none of the testing really captured a swing or anything that would scare me but its possible I missed it. 

[ReefdUp]

Can you get a photo of the algae? Some algae can release toxins when disturbed - not just nutrients.

 

I assume you mean bringing phosphates down to 0.05, not 0.5, right?

 

I still recommend bumping up nitrate. Don't overstrip your water with carbon. 

 

Unfortunately, my quarantine is full (although everything is ready to transition to grow-out, but I just haven't done that yet.) And, there's no guarantee that moving the coral won't stress it out the rest of the way to death. If you're set on removing it, I can try to make room this weekend, but that's a risky move. I'd rather see you try some of the other suggestions here first. Otherwise, I don't think this problem is going away.