SPS Bacterial Infection help?

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Sorry in advance for the novel I appreciate any help as the mysterious deaths of things are by far the absolute worst. So I am at quite a loss of what to do. And then I read what happened to @Leishman and now I am even more at a loss. Little backstory. First of all I don't suspect brown jelly. I have plenty of LPS that hasn't cared at all through this and I've dealt with brown jelly before in my frag tank. My current display has been up around 2 years and I've kept tanks for years before that. Many of the corals in my 180 are good sized colonies. About a year ago randomly I had a sunset monti start to lose flesh but it was covered in this whitish brown fuzz and after a day or 2 spread to a sort of next door lepto. I chalked it up to them being to close but blew off the fuzz and rinsed it good in separate container of tank water and did a little water change and moved it to my frag tank. No further loss since on that coral. Checked all parameters again and nothing was weird. Month later a pc rainbox colony I had got the same weird fuzz. My angelfish does angelfish things but never really caused problems before. The whole colony and frags I made wasted away over the next few days from the fuzz. Again. All levels fine nothing else even remotely phased. I suspected the angelfish and kept an eye on him. 

 

Another month later I had a branch of green slimer that had grown from a nub rtn overnight with the same fuzz. I removed it from the tank. Fast forward like 2 months and a big setosa colony showed a little missing patch. Figured it was in a slightly shaded area or lower flow. Didn't get any bigger or anything for a few days so I did nothing. 2 or so days later bam whitish fuzz. I fragged up the colony and the pieces are all fine. 

 

And just now a few days ago I had a large frogskin and green slimer randomly start to lose flesh to the same weird fuzz. Again fragged most of it and it seems fine. 

 

My levels are all in line again and dont swing. I've ordered an ICP test but I have ruled out so many variables. I am really down to something goofy like potassium or a vibrio/bacterial infection. Hearing what happened to @Leishman makes me suspect it more and more except I have no clue how to deal with it... It's so baffling that it's like 1 by 1. It seems like once any injury or small loss of flesh happens the SPS get the fuzziness and it eats their flesh over the next 2-3 days. So somewhere in between RTN and STN speed. It is all over the tank. Not just one area. But it is weird as I still have lots of SPS healthy and thriving.. 

 

Lights AI Hydra 26s. I think its Saxby settings. Don't think its these guys or shading

Flow 3 mp 40ds 1 mp10 - Ive thought it was flow but it hasn't been one particular area and the water movement is quite good

Temp 78.9

Salinity 1.025

Alk 7.1 

Phos .04 (some algae so probably a little higher like .10) 

Nitrate 2

Ca 410

Mg been a few months but was like 1300 

 

The rest will come out in the ICP test I suppose. If you've made it this far I appreciate it. 

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Guess I would also add there is a lone pepp shrimp in there. I have gone at night with a red lens and looked at the tank and seen nothing amiss he usually just zooms around on the sand and scavenges. I also don't buy wild corals. The only corals I have gotten are from folks in here and I strongly doubt that I inherited any visible pests from them.  

[ReefdUp]

I'm not close, but I'm happy to take a look at some of the fuzz under a microscope.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@ReefdUp it looks like brown jelly consistency. But its not brown. Its like a mostly whitish brown fuzz. Fuzz probably isnt the best term but thats how I'd describe it. Let me see if I can get a picture. I don't believe it is just the corals flesh dying/the reaction from it. But I could be wrong 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Hard to get a good pic but that brown bit is fuzzier in person than the pic. Am really at a loss as to why it is seemingly only 1 coral at a time and over a long span. Its an obvious pattern now. But nothing else seems bothered really.  I assume viewing it under a microscope would confirm it is a bacteria or not? What else could be deduced from that? (I maxed out at chemistry 2 in high school many years ago science isnt my forte lol) 

[ReefdUp]

It'll be interesting what your potassium test shows via ICP. I had low potassium back in the days when getting it measured was nearly impossible, and correcting it was a pain. Not fun but manageable nowadays.

 

What test kit are you using for your nitrate and phosphate? How are the colors on your SPS? 

 

Looks like you run Alk a bit low. Has it always been like that? How are you testing?

 

Looks like you have leathers alongside SPS - are you running carbon? Can you post a full tank shot?

 

Does the issue start at the tips or edges... or just anywhere on a coral?

 

As for a microscope, it depends on what you might have versus the power of the microscope. I can pick up the ciliates associated with BJD extremely easy on mine, but bacteria and viruses can be too tiny to see for me. It just depends.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Here is one from few months back I haven't really taken many pics in the past few months. I have the Hannah testers for both. The low range one. I even reordered reagants multiple times for all and have been going to reefescape every 4-6 months and have them test the levels to make sure my test kits are in line. 

 

I have strongly suspected some trace element like potassium or strontium or the likes that over time just hasnt been replenished. Very strongly suspect that as a cause and the presumed bacterial infection taking place in the weakened corals as the effect. Though the parameter piece has me confused why it only affects 1 coral at a time. Tho it did hit some big red SPS first and Ive read that could be a correlation...

 

I do run carbon and phosguard together in a media bag in the sump. I change them out every couple weeks. The leathers I have also suspected could be a culprit. There are some quite large ones. Though I've mentally pushed that further down the list as many of the corals have been where they are for quite a while. But I just renewed the carbon earlier than I normally do last night. 

 

I've run my alk around 7 for a while. I don't have a ton of nutrients and bioload and at the higher alk I had faster growth but burnt tips. Found it easier to drop alk than raise nutrients and I've just rolled with it. 

 

The pc rainbow colony in the top right was the first to go. That one started from the middle of the colony. I feel pretty good I just didn't have enough flow to the center of it and the angelfish picked at it. 

 

The green slimer in the middle right and the frogskin pieces above the sinularia leather middle left are what is struggling now. 

 

The tissue death pattern is even weirder. The base on the slimer lost a little bit like a cm over a few months as the montipora got closer to it. I kept an eye on it and it stopped and didn't progress for a while. Chalked it up to coral warfare. The slimer like the other big sps tend to get algae and such stuck to them from time to time. I tend to gently move the turkey baster around to knock it off or blow at it from afar. I've suspected this could be a cause as well. The RTN has mostly come from the tips/places of stress/algae etc. I really suspect after more reading it is a strain of vibrio that is taking hold and doing the real damage. 

 

I've ordered amoxicillin has Ive read some good articles of people having success with antibiotics and treating this. I'm quite curious by it. In the mean time I am fragging the slimer whos dying has slowed down a good bit and the frags look fine so far in both the display and my frag tank. I am going to do a small water change like 5% every couple days. And try to try the fuzzy parts with amoxicillin. 

 

Fwiw, i placed a piece with fuzz next to the birdnest bottom middle right. Within hours a piece of the birdnest down flow and about an inch away started to RTN. 

 

I really appreciate your input. I was originally dejected by this and while I know we all who keep sps for a while probably experience rtn there isn't alot of good information about it surprinsingly

[ReefdUp]

I can't respond in length right now, but if it is Vibrio, you may want to consider lowering your tank temp.

[RW09903]

If it's a bacterial issue, would the other organisms in the system be affected as well?

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

@RW09903 I would've thought that a bad infection would have occurred in more things as well. But seeing as though this weird fuzz only really appeared whenever I noticed a coral waa damaged it seems to hold in line with that there are strains of vibrio in all of systems and once a coral is weakened certain strains go nuclear and contribute to the death. Fwiw, I ordered some amoxicillin after reading a pretty interesting tale of anecdotal evidence om reef2reef. After i fragged the corals away from whatever the fuzz was pretty much all the pieces except some birdnest were fight. I deliberately left the fuzz on 2 pieces of the green slimer and 2 pieces of birdnest. I treated 1 of each  in a little bucket mix with the antiobiotic following the post and its been 3 days and the fuzz/bacteria eating them has been reduced almost entirely. Hardly any new RTN/flesh loss if any. The other 2 pieces are rubble rock now. Very limited test obviously but its seeming like it lines up with other reefers findings on this 

[RW09903]

22 minutes ago, smokythemattman@gmail.com said:

@RW09903 I would've thought that a bad infection would have occurred in more things as well. But seeing as though this weird fuzz only really appeared whenever I noticed a coral waa damaged it seems to hold in line with that there are strains of vibrio in all of systems and once a coral is weakened certain strains go nuclear and contribute to the death. Fwiw, I ordered some amoxicillin after reading a pretty interesting tale of anecdotal evidence om reef2reef. After i fragged the corals away from whatever the fuzz was pretty much all the pieces except some birdnest were fight. I deliberately left the fuzz on 2 pieces of the green slimer and 2 pieces of birdnest. I treated 1 of each  in a little bucket mix with the antiobiotic following the post and its been 3 days and the fuzz/bacteria eating them has been reduced almost entirely. Hardly any new RTN/flesh loss if any. The other 2 pieces are rubble rock now. Very limited test obviously but its seeming like it lines up with other reefers findings on this 

 

There are a few threads on R2R where people use witch hazel to dip corals and or dose their systems to stop the progression of STN/ RTN. Found it interesting since witch hazel has antiseptic properties. It might be worth a look. I think there might be a few tests similar to ICP testing to test the biological make up of your water as well. Not sure how commercially available they are but it'll tell you the bacteria strains in your tank.

 

I speculated vibrio in my system a couple years back when I had extreme STN. Started with acros and acans and progressed to a few montis and chalices. It turned out I had faulty calibration solution and my salinity was at 1.035 (my fault since I didn't replace for 4-5 years). The die off lead to a big spike in nutrition which contributed to the issues. Once I corrected the salinity die off stopped and tank has been doing well since. PO4 and NO3 are still high but corals look great so I'm just keeping up with maintenance.  

 

 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Yeah the weird fuzz and the fact that it is very isolated like 1 piece at a time mostly is what has me baffled. The positive reaction to the antibiotic and the decline of those that didn't has me even more leaning towards it. Ive seen RTN before from other causes though not really in my display but in other tanks I have/have had. This is different. I still am not writing off a small goofy parameter that may be neglected. My ICP test shipped out yesterday. But I find it weird that if it was a parameter issue that it hasn't phased some sensitive corals at all. But yeah I've made that mistake with salinity before haha I have like 3 refractometer but i guess the icp test will clarify that up to 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

So the mystery mostly continues. Discovered my calcium reagant is bad at least . Here are my ICP results. Nothing else besides Ca is really off, maybe the trace amounts of aluminum but those arent in tje danger zone. But I am going to add that as a contender to the weird bacterial infection I am having some success treating. I am wondering if maybe the low Ca was causing growth issues and the infection would take hold in areas of bad growth. The tips of the corals that went were usually the first sign of a problem. Extremely doubt Ca at that level alone would cause RTN/STN. Maybe the anecdotal evidence of old of phosguard leeching aluminum is true because I run that a decent bit. 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Things sort of got better a few weeks ago but the past couple days some more montis are losing flesh. I am at such a total loss about to just make an all soft coral display.

 

My nitrates have stayed 1-2. 

Phosphates still at .08 has fluctuated between .05 and .12 max over the past month

Alk has stayed between 6.8-7 

Temp is 78.8

Ca was low in ICP test i have since raised it over a week to 420 where it has been stable. 

Mg is stable. 

I dosed a small amount of iodine and did 1 singular small water change of about 10%. Things looked a little better after so maybe that replenished something else but nothing has tested out of the ordinary. 

 

Im writing off(sort of) bacterial infection for now but am not sure. Ive dosed a little bit of aminos and microbacter (like half dose) in the hopes maybe as my tank has aged something has just not been replenished. 

 

My only guesses right now are flow, lighting or basis ammonia cycle issue (ie somewhere I have alot of detritus or something). I have 3 mp40s set up at opposite ends and 1 mp10. They all run reef crest mode with 20%-90% ramping. I am wondering if that is enough on a 180 with alot of colonies? I have slowly over the months added some more flow but I wonder if its not enough. 

 

For lighting I have 4 ai hydra 26s running the AB+ schedule. They are like 8-9 inches off the water. Could be lighting? Maybe but I had SPS growing on the sandbed 6+ months ago so I doubt its that. 

 

Anyways I am at a total loss. Still some SPS totally unaffected and the death has gotten much much slower over the past few weeks but I still have to be missing something 

[ranger]

Check out AQUABIOMICS on r2r i think it would shock most sps reefkeepers what little we really know this guy is really cutting edge........His testing should really be more popular its a real eye opener.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

Will do thanks! Very interested in any new knowledge because it seems conventional thought/teachings aren't cutting it right now for me

[ReefdUp]

Just curious... do you have any clown gobies by chance? 

 

Can you post a full-tank shot?

 

Just to confirm, the issue starts in various places, correct (not always tips, not always edges, right?) Are the affected corals occurring randomly throughout the tank or is there a pattern (beside each other, linear, etc)?

 

Since you've already gone the path of treating with antibiotics, you may want to research treating with Cipro (as ranger alluded to). I'm not convinced this is your problem, nor would I recommend it without knowing more. 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

It seems to always be places of growth. That is one of the common themes. Typically upward growth, stick tips, monti ridges. Usually the edges look fine as welll as the bases. Below is best I can get to show everything. There are 2 of the wavemakers on each side. The rockwork is a wall style so 2 wavemakers in front and 2 behind. 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

That was pre cleaning/small water change a week or so ago. The location of most problems has been middle of the tank and right. For the most part the colonies on the left have been quite unphased. Still have no real signs of any issue on any LPS/Softies. 

 

No clown gobies. I have a potter's angelfish. I have watched that thing like a hawk for a while. Occasionally maybe every few days Ill see him eye a coral up. Usually it seems he goes for things stuck to them. Ive had him almost the duration of the tank and didnt have problems for a while. It is very possible he has taken bites of things while I am not watching but tbh I am not getting much growth the past few months anyways in general. Some but not like it was. I may rent a par meter. Maybe my lighting has gone goofy as well

[ReefdUp]

Oh yeah, sorry, you did post that (I scrolled back and forth too fast this last go.)

 

 

[ReefdUp]

I'm of the opinion that the simplest answer is usually right. I'm blaming the angel for stressing the corals - sorry. 

 

That's not saying you don't have a bacterial issue, because even healthy tanks often have "bad" bacteria. It's the balance and what allows the "bad" bacteria to cause issues. 

 

There are a lot of folks jumping on the BJD and dosing antibiotics in tanks bandwagon, and I'm not convinced it's appropriate as much as it's touted and recommended. I've done it - only because I regularly rescue dying coral. 

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I value your opinion greatly because of your successes with rehabbing them. I am also curious as to your opinion of soft coral toxins etc? Or if you have ever rescued corals that have been stressed from being eaten. It is definitely possible I just haven't caught it yet. I wonder if the angel mouths the polyps to get their mucuous and thats why it is in areas of growth that seem to die off is weird though. I plan to stare at the tank for like an hour straight tomorrow. 

[ReefdUp]

I tend to not keep a lot of softies, but I'm currently rescuing quite a few, so I run carbon (although running carbon is generally wise regardless). I've heard horror stories but also seen plenty beautiful mixed reefs. Your mileage may vary. However, I would expect alleopathy to affect the entire coral (lack of growth or all-over decay) rather than killing off the growth tips alone. 

 

As for rescuing things being eaten... that's a huge portion of what I take in (be it AEFW, acan-eating spiders, fish, you name it).  Once the culprit is removed, the coral usually recovers, except in cases where infection sets in (this is quite common). So if you have a nipper, I wouldn't be surprised if an infection followed. 

 

I'm not familiar with how angelfish eat coral (and I don't imagine it's similar to what I'm about to describe), but what you're describing reminds me of what I saw while scuba diving in Curacao. They have a terrible fireworm problem, and the fireworms literally engulf the tips of massive staghorn corals with their mouths. They suck off the tissue and move on. Unfortunately, white band disease frequently follows.

 

As for fish culprits, one of my favorite LFS many years ago in another state had a problem they couldn't identify, and the owner swore up and down it wasn't a fish. So, I sat there... waiting.  Sure enough, a purple tang had taken a taste for coral, and it was DESTRUCTIVE. 

 

Another thought... you don't have any emerald crabs or black spined urchins, do you? 

 

I guess my point is to watch the tank both during the day and the night. 

 

 

[ReefdUp]

Sorry, I keep reading and re-reading...

 

If it's mostly upward growth on one side of the tank, then that really makes me think it's a nipper. What lives over there? Is that mostly where the angel lives or has territory?

 

You could try feeding more throughout the day to see if that helps dissuade the potential culprit from going after your coral.

[smokythemattman@gmail.com]

I think I am going to watch some as the lights come on. My tank gets some natural light in the morning before tank lights come on. I feed nori daily which is probably the distraction. I suspect maybe the fish grazes in the sunrise and sunset periods when i never really look at the tank. But yes that is much more "open" swimming space. I still cant figure out why its seemingly new growth/tips affected the most though. Its almost like the flesh doesnt grow over faster than algae takes hold.