jason the filter freak August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 I just switched over from a 25 gallon tank to a 55 gallon tank, and my 25 always had minor problems with nitrates, but that tank olny had a fluval 305 and nothing else..... so over all about 40 gallons of actual water My 55 now has a pro clear aquatics 175 sump, with a 400 gph pump. An aqua clear 100 a fluval 404 and 304 with fresh media 2 power sweep power heads and lots of air pumps and air stones The tank has about 50 pounds or so of decently good quality live sand, and about 70 pounds of live rock with some green, brown, and a little purple coraline algae... and about 8 pounds of heavy growth purple coraline, alond with some other misc orange alge and some plany life. Some one care to help me, I don't know what I'm doing wrong the tank load up until tonight was 8 blue leg hermits and a blue green chromis and a domino damsel (neither of which were mature) Now my load is the same a mentioned before plus 4 more chromis and a slug of some sort that was attached to the live rock. I did a 7 gallon water change, and added some nitrate, nitrite reduction chemicals, and I still not having good luck with nitrates My nitites are Nil so is my amonia The water is at ideal salinity and pH is 8.2 and the temp is 75-78 depending on wether or not my MH lighting is on. WHAT CAN I DO?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrubberbandman August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 Jason, what about the skimmer...u have one? what test kit are you using for nitrates? seems as if you have a bunch of filtration on there...hence the name ...i get it.....lol has youre sand bed been producing alot of air bubbles lately??(i learned this process from reading some old posts from lee stearns)...if so you are probably converting alot nitrites into nitraTES AND SOON THE LEVELS WILL BACK BACK DOWN. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 Well the first thing to do is don't anything else to the tank... Then answer some questions: 1) What was the exact nitrate level (and what type of test kit was used). 2) When the 55 was setup how much new "live rock" and sand were added, how much taken from the older 25 gallon system. 3) do you have some type of bio material in the sump/canister filter... you may want to consider removing them (but wait and do it slowly over time) Most like your tank is cycling and some patientce to let the bacteria catch up with the bio load will probably help. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ne0eN August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 Sounds like New Tank Syndrome. All you need is patience. Are you using RO/DI water? -- Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbyatv August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 I would highly reccomend you read this article. I think it is all you will need. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm I had the same exact problem. It sounds like you need to start farming macro algae in your refugium. Bruce I just switched over from a 25 gallon tank to a 55 gallon tank, and my 25 always had minor problems with nitrates, but that tank olny had a fluval 305 and nothing else..... so over all about 40 gallons of actual water My 55 now has a pro clear aquatics 175 sump, with a 400 gph pump. An aqua clear 100 a fluval 404 and 304 with fresh media 2 power sweep power heads and lots of air pumps and air stones The tank has about 50 pounds or so of decently good quality live sand, and about 70 pounds of live rock with some green, brown, and a little purple coraline algae... and about 8 pounds of heavy growth purple coraline, alond with some other misc orange alge and some plany life. Some one care to help me, I don't know what I'm doing wrong the tank load up until tonight was 8 blue leg hermits and a blue green chromis and a domino damsel (neither of which were mature) Now my load is the same a mentioned before plus 4 more chromis and a slug of some sort that was attached to the live rock. I did a 7 gallon water change, and added some nitrate, nitrite reduction chemicals, and I still not having good luck with nitrates My nitites are Nil so is my amonia The water is at ideal salinity and pH is 8.2 and the temp is 75-78 depending on wether or not my MH lighting is on. WHAT CAN I DO?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 11, 2006 Author Share August 11, 2006 Well the first thing to do is don't anything else to the tank... Then answer some questions: 1) What was the exact nitrate level (and what type of test kit was used). 2) When the 55 was setup how much new "live rock" and sand were added, how much taken from the older 25 gallon system. 3) do you have some type of bio material in the sump/canister filter... you may want to consider removing them (but wait and do it slowly over time) Most like your tank is cycling and some patientce to let the bacteria catch up with the bio load will probably help. Dave None of the live rock came from my 25 gallon, and olny about 15 pounds of live sand came out of that tank, right now I'm using a red sea master test kit I would highly reccomend you read this article. I think it is all you will need. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm I had the same exact problem. It sounds like you need to start farming macro algae in your refugium. Bruce I'd love to have a refigium in the first place, but that's going to be the next step after getting another protien skimmer, right now all I have is a sea clone 100 Sounds like New Tank Syndrome. All you need is patience. Are you using RO/DI water? -- Rob I'm using ro but not di water, because I don't have the set up for an rodi filter I just get the stuff from UMD's labs Jason, what about the skimmer...u have one? what test kit are you using for nitrates? seems as if you have a bunch of filtration on there...hence the name ...i get it.....lol has youre sand bed been producing alot of air bubbles lately??(i learned this process from reading some old posts from lee stearns)...if so you are probably converting alot nitrites into nitraTES AND SOON THE LEVELS WILL BACK BACK DOWN. Bryan Yea I do, i didn't mean to say aqua clear 100, it's a sea clone 100 skimmer, I need a better one, I know but I keep getting mixed reviews and no one seems to have on at an affordable price From the gist of what I'm hearing from people on this thread, I'm going to grab a few more cured pieces of live rock, and work on getting another/better skimmer. Does any one have some good live sand, with established bacteria culture. That i can have/buy?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 Jason, I think you are just going through a cycle... as I said I wouldn't add anything (even rock at this point)... I would consider setting up a refugium and consider getting a better skimmer. Thats the best thing you can do at this point. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbyatv August 11, 2006 Share August 11, 2006 I built my refugium out of a 10 gallon tank ($9 at Wallmart), 5 custom cut glass panes ($5 at Ace Hardware), Aquarium Silicone ($2 or $3), substrate (?), HF Pump ($95), PVC plumbing ($30), overflow box ($50 at Ebay), and 2 daylight compact fluorescent bulbs (5,500K, 26 Watts Each, $7 each at Home Depot) Total of about $180 or $190. It has done the trick with the Nitrates. I have two types of Macro growing in the refugium along with some live rock. I also built my skimmer for about $50 or so. Skimmer design 101 http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/skimmer101.htm A good list of DIY plans http://www.hawkfish.org/snailman/snailmandiy.htm If you decide to do any DIY stuff feel free to hit me with any quaetions as I have traveled the road. I also did a real cool float switch to prevent overflowing the main tank if siphon is lost in over flow. Bruce None of the live rock came from my 25 gallon, and olny about 15 pounds of live sand came out of that tank, right now I'm using a red sea master test kit I'd love to have a refigium in the first place, but that's going to be the next step after getting another protien skimmer, right now all I have is a sea clone 100 I'm using ro but not di water, because I don't have the set up for an rodi filter I just get the stuff from UMD's labs [/quo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 12, 2006 Share August 12, 2006 You said you used nitrite reduction chemicals, don't do that. Let your system go through the natural cycle and remove all biological filtration such as bioballs, sponges, etc. that help to house anaerobic bacteria colonies. Your tank will cycle if it needs to, but the problem is most likely that you are stalling out the cycle and preventing it from going full circle. Do some water changes and then see where your tank is after a month or so with weekly tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar August 12, 2006 Share August 12, 2006 Jason, Tell us how high your nitrates are. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCGx August 12, 2006 Share August 12, 2006 I had a low bio load, euro reef skimmer and plenty of established live rock but my trates stayed high. Then I added a RDSB (remote deep sand bucket) which did the trick. O trates so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 For those of you asking, my nitrite, and amonia levels are zero, but my nitrates are a very saddening 150-ish I've seen a number of people mention removing my bio media, wouldn't that be counter productive? When I was running my FRESH AND BRACKISH tanks I made sure to never clean all my bio media at once, so I could prevent killing off my backeria... Could someone explain why I'd want to take out my bio media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 The process is (as I'm sure you're aware): Amonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrates. "Bio-media" excels at turning waste into nitrates, but it does nothing to remove them. Natural media such as LR or LS can process nitrates. Nitrates are okay for fish (they tolerate fairly high levels) but lethal to corals. Most reef tanks use LR/LS (& water changes) to keep nitrates in check. Bio-balls & other filters of this type are what is known as "nitrate factories" - not good if you're keeping a reef tank. Large skimmers are used to remove waste matter before it goes through the cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 This is a converstion I'm having with one of the WAMAS member in regards to a system called REMOTE DEEP SAND (filter, bucket, etc. I've seen it called a number of things. Any one else have opnions on this. + What kind of sand are you reccomending for this, I think I've made a mistake in my 55, i made about a quarter of my tank on the right side of my tank crushed coral/shell substrate, and then the center about half is course reef sand, and then the left quater is a course black sand, alot of these tanks I'm seeing seem to have very fine sand bottoms, and reccomendations? For both the remote system and the main tank... basically you see alot of tanks with the finer white tropical play sand because, 1 it looks good, but 2nd it doesn't allow for stuff to settle between the grains as easily as crushed coral, etc. If you have good enough flow the stuff will flow over the sand and be suspended until it enters you filter or skimmer. "They" say that you shouldn't mix different size grains of sand becaused different sizes causes the sand to cement itself (something like that) You don't have to use the deep sand bucket if you put six inches of sand in you main display. I don't like that much sand in my tank so I went with the bucket. I used the yardright play sand from ace hardware in my bucket and mixed it with very fine crushed coral in my main display. since it is silica based you may have diatom outbreacks. mine weren't too bad. if you want you can post my responses in the forum part and see what others have to say on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 Let me add that macro algae (in a refugium is also an excellent source of nitrate removal). Do NOT remove all your bio media at once... they will severly inhibit your tanks ability to process the nitrite. Instead remove it slowly over a time... (for me when I did this back on my 125, I basically removed 5-10 biobals every 2-3 days... took a while, but it worked for me)... But what has been said is correct... bio media tends to be a great way to create nitrates... Dave A refugium can also serve as a remote DSB... Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kngfisher August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 For those of you asking, my nitrite, and amonia levels are zero, but my nitrates are a very saddening 150-ish I've seen a number of people mention removing my bio media, wouldn't that be counter productive? When I was running my FRESH AND BRACKISH tanks I made sure to never clean all my bio media at once, so I could prevent killing off my backeria... Could someone explain why I'd want to take out my bio media? I once had the same issue. I was running a 55 with a fluval 404 packed with bio-media and a CPR BacPac with biobail). Even though my tank had a fairly low bio-load my nitrates were sky high ~100. I went the the LFS (marine scene...did not know WAMAS existed back then) and was told to remove the bio-material from the fluval and BacPac. I too thought it was backwards but it worked....well after a bunch of water changes. now all I use my fluval for is carbon on an as needed basis and was amaized with the results. I also added a HOB fuge and packed it full of chaeto. The fluvals can be useful for chemical filtration and adding to flow of the tank but should not be used for biological filtration. I even pulled the sponges out....lots of nitrates traped there. Oh, I also started vaccuming my sand very carfully. That was then and that tank lost a fight with an AC unit but to make a long story short, above was what worked for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 The process is (as I'm sure you're aware): Amonia -> Nitrite -> Nitrates. "Bio-media" excels at turning waste into nitrates, but it does nothing to remove them. Natural media such as LR or LS can process nitrates. Nitrates are okay for fish (they tolerate fairly high levels) but lethal to corals. Most reef tanks use LR/LS (& water changes) to keep nitrates in check. Bio-balls & other filters of this type are what is known as "nitrate factories" - not good if you're keeping a reef tank. Large skimmers are used to remove waste matter before it goes through the cycle. I like your opnion and I like what I paid for it! :wink: I didn't even think of it like that!! I knew about the nitrogen cycle, yes but I didn't consider to having a way to rid my tank of the final product! Ok, I also noticed you mentioned protien skimmers... My issue is a huuuuuuge LACK OF SPACE, the 55 is going in a dorm sized room, and the olny space I have is that under the stand. There for I can olny add insump skimmers that skim water that already passes over bio balls... any ideas on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kngfisher August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 I like your opnion and I like what I paid for it! :wink: I didn't even think of it like that!! I knew about the nitrogen cycle, yes but I didn't consider to having a way to rid my tank of the final product! Ok, I also noticed you mentioned protien skimmers... My issue is a huuuuuuge LACK OF SPACE, the 55 is going in a dorm sized room, and the olny space I have is that under the stand. There for I can olny add insump skimmers that skim water that already passes over bio balls... any ideas on that? I moved up to a Turboflotor 1000 multi because I liked the versatility (HOB or in-sump) and cost (found on sale ~$150) . There are alot of opinions (good and bad) regarding this skimmer but it has worked well for me. Basicly you have to figure out budget and space. The stand for my 55 was only 8" wide and the ways the doors were set the the hight, made it impossible to even put a 10gal tank under the stand. Even if i managed to get the skimmer under the tank, there woul have been very limited space to take the collection cup off the clean and empty it. keep that in mind too. you need to leave a few inches above the skimmer to allow you to to needed maint. on it. In my view, the simplier the setup is the better. other suggestions for skimmers based on space contrants are; The AquaC Remora (HOB) The AquaC Urchin (in-sump) or the CPR BacPack (HOB) with the Maji-jet mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 I should have worded that "powerful" (relative to tank size) instead of large. I hear the Octopus skimmers are pretty good, come a various sizes: AquaCave Octopus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 I was quite embarressed to post this thread in the first place considering all the work that I had done with fresh water tanks in the past, and that I was Petco's aquatics expert ... however I just want to thank everyone for their number of responses. I should also mention being in college I'm on a rather limited budget... I can't spend $300 on a skimmer. So far the solutions people have come up with are: A remote deep sand bed, which I don't know if i can do in the interest of space, although any one who has seen plans to one, please let me know! A bigger and I suppose better protien skimmer, I like the idea of the needle wheel design, due to I hate messing with adjustable air flow intakes, any one have any views on what skimmer is better than another? Lastly it was mentioned to replace my crushed coral/shell aggrogate with some super fine sand, I've been told I can get this at ace hardware, anyone know any other places where I can get this sand. Once again, I found it way worth joining this fourm and I appreciate all the responses I'm getting: Rember My setup = quite limited space, and a more limited budget! Thanks All! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 DId you post pics of your tank anywhere? Anyway you coudl grow some macro (chaeto) in tank? (Maybe even section off a part of the tank.. How about a hang on fuge (I've got one wiht light for $100 in the for sale/trade seciont). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 DId you post pics of your tank anywhere? Anyway you coudl grow some macro (chaeto) in tank? (Maybe even section off a part of the tank.. How about a hang on fuge (I've got one wiht light for $100 in the for sale/trade seciont). Dave I'll post pics of my tank asap, I actually have many members here to thank for my tank, some people should recongize the tank quite readily Ok I was just reading a thread on RC and I came across this!! I want to know if anyone has heard about this or has any opnions before I start getting my fish drunk! This was a comment on a DSB thread This has nothing to do with this thread BUT I just came across this thread, Have any of you ever tried the sugar/vodka method. The way this works is almost like the DSB bucket but a lot easier. When you add sugar or vodka ( They both do the same thing) to your tank it feeds anerobic bacteria. They eat the sugar , then the sugar is gone, so now theres a million bacteria in the tank with nothing to eat. So they eat your nitrates, at the same time your skimmer skims out these bacteria that have nitrates. Therefor lowering your nitrates I have a red sea test kit and my nitrates were off the chart. I'm guessing at least 60-80ppm, the test kit didn't go up that high. So I decided to add a little sugar since water changes were useless. In 2 weeks my nitrates were down to 0 ppm and have stayed there ever since. I did not do a water change in the sugar period and haven't done one in a loooong time. Now in my 92G tank I have a few damsels, 2 clowns, pajama cardinal, and two medium size tangs, I have never had a nitrate problem since. I have started manyt threads on this and steered many people in the right direction. Also I do not know one person that has lost any livestock including corals doing this. If any people are interested let me know, I'm here to help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 I've heard and the theory is actually pretty sound. Randy Holmes-Farley (RHF) has done some testing... look in the cheimisty forum. I think he prefers the sugar as opposed to vodka method (less "other stuff")... I've never tried it as I have low nitrates, but I was curious about it so I read through a couple of threads... The problem with a lot of stuff is that people say it's the miracle cure, but little "scientifc testing" is done on long term affects, etc. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikS August 14, 2006 Share August 14, 2006 Dave's covered sugar/vodka so I'll take this one: I can't spend $300 on a skimmer Check the link, lot's under that price........and there are always skimmers in the for sale/trade sections here & @ RC. Even the smallest Octopus would be 100% more skimming than you have now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 14, 2006 Author Share August 14, 2006 Can any one tell me wether it's be better to have fine or coarse sany for my bottom covering, as well as my remote deep sand bed?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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