HLLE, Carbon, Tangs, and Help

[TrueTricia]

So my little 40g tank needs some advice.

 

I have a 40g tank set up with 2 powerfilters (each rated for 50g), 4 T5s, a single koralia powerhead, and some live rock.  I've got a small sailfin tang and a maroon clown in there, along with those stupid damsels (which are on their way out).  The tang and the clown get along fine.

 

Both my tang and the clown got HLLE a few months back.  I had just changed the carbon in the filter sock, so I immediately took that away.  They immediately recovered.  I hadn't thrown the old one away yet, so I put it back in, and they continued to do fine.  Last week or the week before, I changed the carbon again.  This time I rinsed it very well, letting it sit in a baking dish and rinsing it until it was absolutely clear.

 

Now my tang has spots again.  I thought maybe it was ich because of its initial appearance as small white dots, but they're now looking more like HLLE scars.  And no one else has anything even remotely wrong with it.  The scars are popping up all along her face.  I'm pulling the carbon again, but I'm wondering what to do moving forward.  I can't do a skimmer on this tank, so my options are power or canister filters.  Let's assume for the moment I stick with the powerfilter.

 

Does anyone have carbon brand recommendations?  What about those deep blue carbon/nitrate pads? 

 

Thoughts?

[YHSublime]

Why is your tang not in the 90?

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Why can't you use a hang on back skimmer? Take the carbon off and just keep regular waterchanges would be fine.

[lutz123]

I don't know much about this tank's specifics (including how you use the carbon and what type it is), but why the absolute need for carbon? Are water changes not keeping the water quality up? The powerfilters sound a tad small - maybe 70 gallon rated ones would be better. There are some guides on how to choose appropriate carbon - what to look for on the label. I only use it occasionally so I really don't have the answer. Found this (I am sure there are varying opinions):

 

Here’s a guide on what to look for when buying activated carbon:

 

► Look on the product label for information about the carbon. If the label talks about the carbon process of using steam, oxygen, or carbon dioxide, then it is truly phosphate-free and won’t leach phosphates into the water. Some carbons are simple marked “Phosphate-Free” which indicates a steam activated process. If the label does not mention phosphates, doesn’t tout the activation process, or requires rinsing to minimize phosphates, it is likely a low grade phosphor-washed carbon that should be avoided.

 

► If you use your carbon in a media reactor or tumbler, buy an extruded or pelletized carbon. It won’t break apart when the grains bang into each other. For use in canister filters or mesh bags, use granular carbon. It will give you more surface area- albeit at the cost of being softer and more fragile.

 

► Ash is an inorganic material that is left behind after the activation process. Look for carbon that is marked as low ash content or one that states “Does not affect PH”. High ash content can cause a significant rise in PH when first placed in the aquarium. This can cause undue stress on the livestock. I have personally seen pH values climb within minutes from 8.0 to 9.5 pH with some carbons. All carbons contain some ash and a thorough rinsing in fresh water will remove most of it.

 

► Quality brands of activated carbon will feature other parameters, such as Iodine Number below 600, Molasses Number above 400, or listing pore size in Angstroms. These are all signs of a quality manufacturer that has nothing to hide, and is offering a superb product.

[Jon Lazar]

Jay Hemdal published a study of carbon and HLLE in November 2011. 

 

My takeaway was that carbon fines are bad.  Cheap lignate carbon makes more fines, and has a worse impact on fish.  Better quality carbon pellets have much less of an effect, but still causes very small lesions.

 

If you feel it's important to use carbon, I would avoid the cheaper lignate carbon and go with larger pellet sizes.  Rinse very well before use, as you've been doing.  I would also minimize the flow through your reactor or bag to prevent tumbling and creating more fines.

 

Good luck!

[TrueTricia]

Why is your tang not in the 90?

 

She's a small tang who got beat up in the 90.  That was the plan for her originally.  She and the clown fish get along and hang out together.  I determined her life was better in the 40g. 

[TrueTricia]

Why can't you use a hang on back skimmer? Take the carbon off and just keep regular waterchanges would be fine.

 

 

I've never had a tank that I JUST did water changes.  There's always been carbon filtration, and now my skimmer on the 90g.  The HOB skimmer is a good idea.  I'll look for one on Amazon and post a WTB.  I'll move the powerfilters to my work tank where there are no tangs.

 

 

I don't know much about this tank's specifics (including how you use the carbon and what type it is), but why the absolute need for carbon? Are water changes not keeping the water quality up? The powerfilters sound a tad small - maybe 70 gallon rated ones would be better. There are some guides on how to choose appropriate carbon - what to look for on the label. I only use it occasionally so I really don't have the answer. Found this (I am sure there are varying opinions):

 

Here’s a guide on what to look for when buying activated carbon:

 

► Look on the product label for information about the carbon. If the label talks about the carbon process of using steam, oxygen, or carbon dioxide, then it is truly phosphate-free and won’t leach phosphates into the water. Some carbons are simple marked “Phosphate-Free” which indicates a steam activated process. If the label does not mention phosphates, doesn’t tout the activation process, or requires rinsing to minimize phosphates, it is likely a low grade phosphor-washed carbon that should be avoided.

 

► If you use your carbon in a media reactor or tumbler, buy an extruded or pelletized carbon. It won’t break apart when the grains bang into each other. For use in canister filters or mesh bags, use granular carbon. It will give you more surface area- albeit at the cost of being softer and more fragile.

 

► Ash is an inorganic material that is left behind after the activation process. Look for carbon that is marked as low ash content or one that states “Does not affect PH”. High ash content can cause a significant rise in PH when first placed in the aquarium. This can cause undue stress on the livestock. I have personally seen pH values climb within minutes from 8.0 to 9.5 pH with some carbons. All carbons contain some ash and a thorough rinsing in fresh water will remove most of it.

 

► Quality brands of activated carbon will feature other parameters, such as Iodine Number below 600, Molasses Number above 400, or listing pore size in Angstroms. These are all signs of a quality manufacturer that has nothing to hide, and is offering a superb product.

 

And the filters are rated for 50g each, which means I'm filtering for a 100g tank with a 40g.  But I never new that carbon affected pH levels.  That's good to know.  Actually, everything in that guide is good to know.  Thanks! 

[TrueTricia]

Jay Hemdal published a study of carbon and HLLE in November 2011. 

 

My takeaway was that carbon fines are bad.  Cheap lignate carbon makes more fines, and has a worse impact on fish.  Better quality carbon pellets have much less of an effect, but still causes very small lesions.

 

If you feel it's important to use carbon, I would avoid the cheaper lignate carbon and go with larger pellet sizes.  Rinse very well before use, as you've been doing.  I would also minimize the flow through your reactor or bag to prevent tumbling and creating more fines.

 

Good luck!

 

I've read that study.  Honestly, until I moved to DC, I had never experienced HLLE.  I had a small tamini (sp?) tang to eat algae in my old tank which ran power filters, and I never had problems.  Maybe it's something in the water lol.  Anyways, I didn't give that study much credit since in my experience I hadn't had any problems.  Now I'm starting to think I was just lucky.

[davelin315]

Keep it out of the filter sock. Passive filtrations is not as effective but it also won't reduce the carbon to dust and cause issues for your fish.

[TrueTricia]

Keep it out of the filter sock. Passive filtrations is not as effective but it also won't reduce the carbon to dust and cause issues for your fish.

 

What do you mean?  I thought the filter sock was passive filtration?  If not, what would be an example?

[Coral Hind]

What exactly are you trying to achieve by using the carbon? Can something else be used like ozone?

[lnevo]

What do you mean? I thought the filter sock was passive filtration? If not, what would be an example?

Filter socks are passive filtration if you put carbon in there. I think he was saying passive filtration for carbon wasnt ideal. A fluidized reactor would be the corollary.

[davelin315]

Filter socks are passive filtration if you put carbon in there. I think he was saying passive filtration for carbon wasnt ideal. A fluidized reactor would be the corollary.

Actually, see my thoughts below... I feel like a filter sock is quite the opposite of passive.

 

What do you mean?  I thought the filter sock was passive filtration?  If not, what would be an example?

Filter socks won't necessarily tumble the carbon, but they will shred it pretty quickly. Think of it in terms of a waterfall and the hole it cuts in the bottom of the falls - the weathering properties of falling water will create a ton of dust. Passive filtration is more like putting it in a filter bag and then sticking it in an area of flow. Some of the water passes through but not all of it. A hang on back filter is good because it has the water pass through it but it does not churn the carbon and it does not have enouh flow to tear up the carbon.

[lnevo]

I follow your logic but its not much different then a mesh bag in a high flow area. But yeah potentially could be turbulent. Also depends how your socks are plumbed and how you put it in the sock.

[TrueTricia]

Actually, see my thoughts below... I feel like a filter sock is quite the opposite of passive.

 

Filter socks won't necessarily tumble the carbon, but they will shred it pretty quickly. Think of it in terms of a waterfall and the hole it cuts in the bottom of the falls - the weathering properties of falling water will create a ton of dust. Passive filtration is more like putting it in a filter bag and then sticking it in an area of flow. Some of the water passes through but not all of it. A hang on back filter is good because it has the water pass through it but it does not churn the carbon and it does not have enouh flow to tear up the carbon.

Mine is in a mag bag in the power filter in an area of flow. Sorry, I may have used filter sock before but I just meant it as a bag. It's in a power filter.

 

I came home yesterday planning on removing the carbon and he looked fine. Maybe he has just scraped against something and I over reacted?

[davelin315]

In a bag shouldn't pose any issues - a filter sock in the typical use would cause it to disintegrate, but since that's not what you're doing, the carbon itself shouldn't be releasing a lot of dust.

[Paul'sReef]

No need for carbon. A good protein skimmer and frequent water changes work fine for me. I've noticed a big difference in corals and fish by taking it out. I was using BRS rox.