Weeks of high nitrates

[Marine Enthusiast]

I have quickly(before I had enough experience) upgraded my tanks to twin 125g. Each has over 100lbs L/R and one has over 100lbs L/S the other bare bottom. I now have a nitrate problem. I have been doing 20-40% water changes, adding nitrate reduction pads for 2 months and now a Instant Ocean natural nitrate reducer liquid. This began several months back when a LFS guy advised me to never use tap water(which is all I ever used since I began my tank journey *treated with Prime or Instant Ocean depending on top-off or water change)due to heavy metals and cloramine. I started topping off with filtered ZERO(no TDS or PH value)water not knowing it needed a buffer added to give the PH a boost. The two tanks quickly crashed over three weeks to just under 7ph and skyrocketed to off the chart over 200 nitrate level. The L/S tank got hit hard with over 5 fish lost, only 1 in the bare bottom tank. It took a couple weeks to stabilize the PH but the nitrates keep spiking. The lowest has been 40 and within a day or two it climbs to over 80. The tank with bare bottom takes longer to rise and does not get as high. All fish and corals seem stable now in both tanks but I feel like my tanks are in some kind of never-ending cycle and I wonder if I need to do something drastic or just keep up water changes until the live rock and sand re-cure?

[smallreef]

pretty much... its a wait it out issue...

 

another idea instead of using tap-into the zero water and then a PH buffer is to get a REAL ro/di unit (plus it will be cheaper than replacing that ZERO water filter in the long run) you MAY still need a PH buffer but I never have...

 

and let it settle and get back close to 0 with your nitrates...

 

Have you had any ammonia or anything else seem off?

[Marine Enthusiast]

All parameters have stayed normal(except nitrates) once the PH stabilized. I have only been feeding 5x week to cut back on waste. The L/S tank protein skimmer still gives a dank cup every other day with the bare bottom tank producing a little more than normal. The live sand tank has 2 skunk, 2 peppermint, 1 pistol, 1 fire and 1 coral banded shrimp(all larger than any I have seen in other tanks) 2 7-9in engineer gobys, several urchins and over 15 misc. snails. The only fish survivors are 3in sailfin tang and small clown, chromis and damsel. The bare bottom tank only lost a younger Rabbit and still has 9in Black Volitan, 4.5in Orange Shoulder, 4in Diana's Hog, 6in Silver Squirrel, 5in Picasso Trigger, 5.5in Clown Trigger. There is more light and filtration on the Community tank but less of all algae. The sand bed and glass appear clean while I am scrubbing the Predator tank often.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Marine Enthusiast

[zygote2k]

your predator tank has high levels of nitrate because the amount that you are feeding is greater than the amount that comes out with w/c and skimmate.

You are supposed to have a net LOSS of nutrients, but it sounds like you have a net GAIN of nutrients.

 

You also say that you quickly upgraded the tanks to 125g. What size tank did you have before? Was there zero Nitrate in the old tank? Did you get new rock and L/S or did you get someone else's nitrate saturated rock and sand?

It also sounds like your 125 is overcrowded with large fish.

What kind of filtration do you have on the predator tank? What kind of skimmer?

Edited July 28, 2012 by zygote2k

[Origami]

You say that all other parameters have stayed normal. Please give us the parameters and numbers for what you're measuring.

 

The large nitrate spikes indicate a spike in decomposition or an introduction of nitrate from the outside. It can also be a bad test kit. The sudden pH crash may indicate a lack of adequate buffering.

 

Tell us more about your parameters, and your water treatment regimen in the recent past and today. Your treatment protocols seem to be aimed at controlling symptoms/indicators and not root cause.

[Marine Enthusiast]

The coral tank has 150g protein skimmer, a fluval fx5 and a couple HOB with nitrate, ammonia and heavy metal filter pads and carbon. that tank has been 8.3 ph 0 nitrite 0 ammonia 9.5 dh The fluctuation has been with Nitrate now down to 30(as high as 200 a couple weeks ago) and phosphate about 1-2 now and as high as 5-10

I maintain 400-500 calcium and 1.023 specific gravity. The predator tank has a UV filter 2 100g skimmers 2 HOB filters with the same media as the other tank. I have been replacing both every 2-3 weeks. The phosphates are higher today at 5 and KH is lower at 9 dh. I have been very careful to not overfeed this tank but those guys can go through some meet.

[Marine Enthusiast]

I went from a 30g and 55g. I have only put in cured L/R from LFS. These tanks were up with no problems for over 6 months before I changed the type of water I topped off with.

[Origami]

Why do you run the filter pads? Is your biological filtration (live rock, etc.) insufficient to do the job? Tell me specifically what product(s) your using.

 

What is "Filtered ZERO" water? Where do you get it and what do you know about it? BTW, any water has a pH value. If neutral, it's pH 7. But, being unbuffered, it can swing very easily and typically will swing to a lower number between 5 and 7 due to CO2 infiltration.

 

This is happening in both tanks, right? Both the community and predator tanks? Similar symptoms?

[Origami]

Zero-water. Is it this?

http://www.zerowater.com/

 

I'm afraid that I can't find enough information on exactly what filtration this product provides. Do you have a TDS meter to verify performance of the filter, and to understand when the filter is depleted? I suspect, but don't know, there's a DI resin stage in this product that removes various ions. Unfortunately, when depleted, DI resin can release a burst of ions such as phosphates and even nitrates.

 

A couple of observations: 1) You're relying on a canister filter a large amount of your filtration when it may be appropriate to try to shift some of this to your live rock. 2) You may not really know the quality of the water that you're adding to your tank. A decent RO/DI water filter (such as from Air, Water, Ice - one of our sponsors) may be more appropriate and save you money in the long run.

[Origami]

This is posted on zerowater.com as a description of their setup:

 

Stage 1: Activated carbon infused micron cloth.

Stage 2: Multi-layer system using activated carbon and oxidation reduction alloy.

Stage 3: Distributor that maximizes contact time.

Stage 4: Comprehensive ION EXCHANGE array.

Stage 5: Non-woven membrane to remove fine particles.

 

The highlighted term in the description of Stage 2 disturbs me. It implies the use of two metals used as electron donors. This can result in things like copper and zinc salts making their way into your aquarium. This may not be such a great issue for drinking water, but the chemistry in a marine tank is very different.

 

Can you easily test your tank for copper contamination? If copper is coming off of this filter, then it could be that you're killing off any biological filtration (bacteria) with it.

[Marine Enthusiast]

I did make sure the water was 0 TDS but I cannot check for copper. I stopped adding the zero water a couple months ago. I was using it only to top off and used LFS saltwater to do w/c. I have since reverted back to treating tap water for all. I stopped trusting the one LFS guy who made me feel like I was always bothering him with my questions and he was the only convenient source of treated water. This picture shows the PH below 5 and is the best test I have. My new not so LFS test had no reading of PH. I'm pretty sure there was die off of L/R. I used to only use carbon in other filters prior to crash. My new LFS showed me these products to help between my very often and sometimes large water changes. My live rock has alot of space between each piece for flow. I have 2 hydor 1050gph plus the HOBs circulating the tank. It is in both tanks the common factor being the zero water. Yesterday I did a 50% w/c in predator tank and several pieces of L/R had a light odor. Today I did a 50% w/c in the coral tank and none had any death smell. Thank you for your interest in my problem. I am getting frustrated with fish store guys who keep telling me their "Ace in the Hole".

[Marine Enthusiast]

I changed over 50% of coral tank water. For the first time in months below 20 nitrate and less than 1 phosphate. All other parameters are normal. I also re-aquascaped expanding live rock as much as possible. I am wondering if more live rock or "seeding" existing rock and sand would help.

[Marine Enthusiast]

BTW Here are some pics of the guys you are helping me save and their #1 fan

[Marine Enthusiast]

After looking around for copper tests I am now confused. Too much copper is bad but none is bad too? Once I get the coral tank under control I will want to restock. I don't have room for a quarantine and have just trusted my sellers fish are parasite free. So far so good. Do I need to have some level of copper to ensure parasite death? One thing about this hobby is once you learn one thing you are forced to learn more...AWESOME!

[Origami]

A pH of 5 does not make sense. Your rock (I assume it's reef rock - aragonite) and sand (assumed, too, to be aragonite) would start dissolving before that point. I don't trust the kit you're using. Either the kit is bad, it's being improperly used (7 drops in 5 ml of test water, right?), or it's being confounded by something. It's a marine test kit, right?

 

Again, water ALWAYS has a pH. pH is the measure of the hydrogen ion concentration in water. The fact that the LFS didn't give you a measurement doesn't mean there wasn't one. They may not have tested.

 

I would dump the Deep Blue phosphate pad. A quick search over a few reefing sites shows that there aren't many good things people are saying about it. In several cases, people have seen pH spikes from them and a lot of skimmer activity.

 

Glad that you dumped the zerowater. Without further information from the manufacturer on such things or a well-established track record of safety with other hobbyists, I wouldn't trust it for aquarium use. I'd rather use tap water (even though that has it's risks, too). Ideally, I'd use RO/DI water.

 

Major water changes with known good salt water will correct a lot of problems. In fact, if copper is at the root of this, I would perform a 100% water change. (Really, this is just a matter of matching the temperature and then slowly acclimating the livestock to the new, clean water.

 

Have you noted any other changes in the tank? For example, do/did you have worms and other benthic organisms in the tank with the sand? If so, are they still around?

 

 

 

Can you describe the odor you were smelling from the live rock?

[Marine Enthusiast]

After a couple months of stable parameters I cut back on how often I tested water. I checked ammonia and nitrates weekly and ph and others monthly instead of every other day. The ph had not changed from 8.3 for six months prior to adding this zero water. In three weeks it dropped to seven. Adding water with a ph of less than 5 dropped the tanks ph and as you said started to dissolve the rock and sand.

 

My new LFS says he doesn't test for copper because the tests are too hard to read. Also the "ace in the hole" he had me put in a few weeks ago was chemi-pure he says would have pulled out any copper by now.

 

One thing I just noticed is the coralline algae had started to spread before all this happened. There is none on the spots it was spreading.

 

I have smelled a fresh batch of uncured live rock bad enough to pull my head back an say "EEEWW" my rock had the same death smell but only a hint on a few pieces.

 

I just ran out of ph test but my kh came down slightly from 9 to 8.5 with this last water change. Any time I add any new media I have to keep after the skimmer for about six hours but the phosphate pads so far have failed to bring down the level still at 2. That is the level of my treated tap water so unless I can somehow get this RO/DI you say will work I don't have any other options?

[Origami]

This is what I think happened. It's only an opinion but it's based on what you've said so far. My guess is that the zerowater triggered this. From the little I read about it, I'm suspicious of the alloys used in the zerowater treatment filter - the so-called oxidation reduction alloy. My guess is that heavy metal ions like zinc and copper were released into your tank when the zerowater DI stage was depleted, or may have even gotten past the DI stage if in non-ionic form.

 

I wouldn't blame the zerowater for shifting your pH directly, though. The pH of relatively pure water is nominally 7, but is very unstable. It's very easy for it to shift to 5 because of exposure to CO2 in the air. You can shift it back closer to 7 or even higher with the addition of a very small amount of buffer, or even aeration with fresh air. Still, because of the nature of pH, it's difficult to shift the pH of salt water very much with the addition of pure water to saltwater because of salt water's natural buffering capacity. In other words, it's unnecessary to add a buffer your fresh water top off. In fact, I wouldn't solely for that purpose.

 

If heavy metals were released into your tank, some things would begin to die off. Bacterial populations would begin to crash. The biological filtration in your rock, sand, and other solid surfaces in your canister filter would begin to die off. This die off would cause a spike in ammonia and organic acids. The ammonia, once elevated sufficiently, would begin to kill off other life, further elevating the ammonia level (a vicious cycle) until you brought the level down. This is probably when you stopped using the zerowater. The damage was done, but bacteria are resilient. Once bacterial populations began to recover, this ammonia would undergo nitrification to elevate nitrates and to drop pH. Normally, denitrification, a process that as a byproduct raises pH, follows to convert nitrates to nitrogen gas, but your tank was really out of whack and nitrates soared.

 

Most of this probably happened somewhat "silently" - that is, until the ammonia levels climbed, you wouldn't have seen much on the macro level, or perhaps missed the subtle signs. It wasn't until some of the macro life started dying off that you took notice. By then, the cycle was underway.

 

Again, all a hypothetical scenario on my part. I cannot, for sure, tell you that heavy metals from the zerowater triggered this. But, for aquarium purposes, I'd steer clear of anything that used heavy metals in the manner that the zerowater system does.

 

By the way, the "EWWW" - "smell of death" on your rock is probably a sign of decomposition: The breakdown of organic material which releases ammonia and organic acids.

 

Tell me, why did you switch from tap-water to the zerowater? In most of our reef tanks, we're careful about monitoring the quality of water that goes in and RO/DI allows us to have a known-good starting point. However, sometimes municipal tap water works just fine. The quality can vary through the year, though. If everything was going well with your tank before the switch, then why switch?

[Marine Enthusiast]

I think that is spot on. I realized the predator tank was having the same issue almost a week after the first tank so I did not start the same regimen of water changes and the like. When I changed the water today the smell was less than last time so I'm hoping I am on track to stabilize this one. I will check the parameters in a few hours and again tomorrow. Before the change today nitrates were down to 20.

 

The coral tank ph is 8.3 and nitrates did not read at LFS but my test shows 5-10. I will give the phosphate pads a little more time because the nitrate pads seem to help.

 

The reason I started to use ZERO water is my old LFS guy scared me away from tap water. He did not seem receptive to my never-ending questions even though I could not stop spending money in his store as I was upgrading 2 tanks from 55 and 30 to 125s. At one point he said he would have to charge me by the hour to relay all his knowledge. Joking or not that was not funny. He would hand me a pamphlet and say go look it up.

 

Anyway when I bought his filtered water I tested it when I got home and it read 0 TDS. I did not realize the difference in how the water got to 0 TDS by my home filter and thought this was going to save me some trips to his store. My whole family drinks this and we love it so...why not the fish too.

When these filters get to the end of the useable service there is an odd taste. Within a day or so of this taste is when the meter will no longer read 0.

 

So lesson learned= Do not use ZERO brand filtered water for fish tank use.

 

I do think it would be interesting if this were scientifically proven.

 

My hope is by the end of this week I can get at least the one tank off the pads and back to just carbon. A normal work week for me is 50-70 hrs and do not have much time or energy to do often water changes which is why I use the carbon. I was told it helps extend the period between a large w/c.

Any opinion on that? I hope to make the most of this week of vacation and could use some advice.

 

Again THANK YOU for your interest!

[Origami]

The "odd taste" you're referring to is probably a burst of ions being released from the depleted DI resin in the zerowater filter.

 

Carbon, in our tanks, helps to remove organic molecules that typically yellow the water. It can certainly extend the period between large water changes. I like carbon and run it 24/7. Some others here, though, only run it intermittently or when they feel they have a reason to. Carbon dust has been implicated in HLLE (head and lateral line erosion disease) in the last year or two. Risk can be mitigated by rinsing well, and if using a fluidized reactor being careful not to tumble the media too aggressively. Packed carbon doesn't tumble, so if well rinsed, there shouldn't be a problem. In a well-balance and maintained system, though, large water changes are rare and should not be necessary. This may be a little different with a heavily-stocked predator tank, though. BTW, when nitrates begin climbing like that, double check against your alkalinity as it may be falling faster than usual.