Anyone have a good structural engineer?

[anemone0524]

Moving my tank to a new house brings new concerns about the structural integrity of the floor, subfloor, joists, etc. I am willing to bring out an expert on this for peace of mind. Does anyone know a good structural engineer they can refer? Maybe someone here has used one before for their tank?

 

 

Details about the tank - 150gallon of heavy glass, i've estimated the tank with sump and stand full will weigh no more than 2,500 pounds. The house is 15 years old, putting it on the main floor. I do know it's on top of an I-beam, and maybe 2-3 joints maximum.

 

Thanks!

 

Aaron

[DaveS]

I have a guy. Not from a fish tank project but he has done load analysis on structures for me.

[smallreef]

Just to give you an idea.. i had a 150g acrylic tank... 200lbs of LR and a 55g sump in my townhouse built in 1992 along a main adjoining wall (not a steel I beam but a engineered wood one).. it was against the back wall and was ontop of joists spaced 16 inches on center so it spanned 5 of them... never had a problem...

[BowieReefer84]

Structural systems and solutions. Paul Leterri is the owner and PE.

 

2420 Pony Ln, Reston, VA 20191

<br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; line-height: 16px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(230, 230, 230); ">

(703) 391-1044

http://www.superpage...L2044297410.htm

 

He is more or less a one man show, but does an amazing job. My old company used him all the time on $20+ million dollar jobs. Very reasonable prices imo, and no job too small.

Edited April 8, 2012 by BowieReefer84

[anemone0524]

Smallreef - did you get any warping or bending in the floor? Any noticable unevenness in the leveling of the tank? It's doubly important on my tank because it's rimless and can't really endure any unevenness due to floor warping..

 

Thanks Bowie, i'll need to follow up with them.

Edited April 8, 2012 by anemone0524

[BowieReefer84]

Tell Paul you were referred by an old employee of "Manganaro Midatlantic" that worked on the Ft. Belvoir project in Springfield.

[smallreef]

we had just ripped up the carpeting and put in a "floating" plank floor and no problems at all..

and when we took it down the only thing that was wrong was some salt creep stuck in one of the crevices of the planks, lol Tank was up for 3 years by the way...

so long enough to notice if there had been a problem appear but maybe not long enough if it were structural, though it made it through 3 earthquakes with no issues....

[firecrackerbob]

Im NOT a structural engineer, so obviously they are the only ones who can give a truly accurate opinion, BUT I would be totaly shocked if you they came back and said it would be a problem! just from personal experience, I had a 120 set up in my town house before I moved, similar to what you are describing. I was paranoid as well, so I set up some deck beams under the tank with just enough wiggle room to slide the supports into place. two years later when I was getting ready to move, I took down the supports with the tank still full. there had been zero compression on the system. your results may vary though... keep us posted! I would be very interested to hear a professionals take on it!

[ErikS]

Im NOT a structural engineer, so obviously they are the only ones who can give a truly accurate opinion..................... I would be very interested to hear a professionals take on it!

+2 I'd be interested to hear the results.

 

While it sounds like a lot of weight it's pretty well dispersed. Your tank is 5 x 2 or somethling like that, right? That would put the load @ 250lb / sq ft - is that were a problem you couldn't have any...um, ah, er.....large folks in your house - they could easily exceed 250lb/sq ft (a person standing is about 1sq ft).

 

Unless you have some point loads for the tank (i.e. leveling legs).

 

But............I am not an engineer

 

It would be interesting for all of use to hear the results (along with details of location). You mention near the I beam, parallel to perpendicular to the joists?

 

I would think age of the house has little or nothing to do with it...........new & old I've seen some really cheesy stuff (amazing where they choose to save a buck)

Edited April 9, 2012 by ErikS

[surf&turf]

+2 I'd be interested to hear the results.

 

While it sounds like a lot of weight it's pretty well dispersed. Your tank is 5 x 2 or somethling like that, right? That would put the load @ 250lb / sq ft - is that were a problem you couldn't have any...um, ah, er.....large folks in your house - they could easily exceed 250lb/sq ft (a person standing is about 1sq ft).

 

Unless you have some point loads for the tank (i.e. leveling legs).

 

But............I am not an engineer

 

It would be interesting for all of use to hear the results (along with details of location). You mention near the I beam, parallel to perpendicular to the joists?

 

I would think age of the house has little or nothing to do with it...........new & old I've seen some really cheesy stuff (amazing where they choose to save a buck)

 

 

It was explained to me the same way when I was worried about my 90, by an engineer.

 

3 large buddies sitting on the couch watching a football game can easily exceed the weight of a large tank.

[ErikS]

It was explained to me the same way when I was worried about my 90, by an engineer.

 

3 large buddies sitting on the couch watching a football game can easily exceed the weight of a large tank.

Yep, and couches often have legs = point loads. So 3 x 275lb = 825lbs = 206lbs on maybe 16 sq inches.

 

On the flip side he does have a valid concern, while it would be just fine for the floor to give a bit with the guys on the couch......might not be so good with a tank. And don't forget the house, built to code or overbuilt? Location (parallel or perpendicular).

[BowieReefer84]

Better safe than sorry. I am risk adverse.

[extreme_tooth_decay]

I am not a structural engineer, but this topic has come up several times.

 

I see some common myths in this thread.

 

One of the most common ones is "A fat person can stand on the floor with no problem", and this is much more pressure than the aquarium.

 

The floor's ability to take a load for an hour says nothing about its ability to take the load for years.

 

This is an interesting read:

 

LINK

 

(see myth number 10a, 11 (there are 2 11's...the second one)

 

Also note in his conclusions "If your tank is over 125 gallons, then it is likely that you should consider adding supports under your wood framed floor. "

 

For me, personally, when I put in a 125, I put it right over an I-beam, spanning several joists, and I went ahead and doubled up those joists. Didn't cost much or take much effort, and made me feel good. Maybe wasn't needed.

Edited April 9, 2012 by extreme_tooth_decay

[anemone0524]

Good discussion so far.

 

Yea I had heard of the 'fat guy on a couch' myth before. Its like the difference between temporary weight vs permanent weight. Big difference.

 

I've estimated the weight of my system to be between 2200-2400 pounds, all told. That would be like eight, 300 pound guys standing in a 5 x 2 foot spot for years.

 

Fortunately the tank has forgiving dimensions, the fact that it's spread out over 5 feet width and 2 feet depth helps spread the weigh impact.

 

But i can't tolerate anything more than 1 or 2 mm of sagging in the floor. I just don't have confidence my tank will retain structural integrity over the long term (especially since it's rimless, and its a GC tank...) if i have an unlevel tank.

[anemone0524]

Bowie - Called Paul, explained the project, and he essentially said it was not a good fit for him. I think he doesn't work on individual, residential type projects, and only works on larger corporate endeavors. He seemed very busy.

 

Dave S.'s guy is available and willing and I have an appointment with him.

 

If anyone else has a referral let me know. I'd still prefer to go with someone who has specific aquarium experience, but maybe that's asking too much.

Edited April 9, 2012 by anemone0524

[ErikS]

I am not a structural engineer, but this topic has come up several times............I see some common myths in this thread........................

Yeah, kind of like stand builds

 

I do like the parts about location, seems pretty critical & can vary widly. I'd guess he's right to ask an engineer, no real way to know. I like #16 - seen many budget homes from the 50's & 60's.....far better built than the "higher end" boxes they've thrown up around here in the last decade..........fast growth lumber, lower skill set, cut every penny, etc. Of course that ain't as bad as older ones built with balloon framing

 

I did find the shear failure mentioned interesting......never heard of that one, new builds with hangers? I have had experience with long term point loads causing a problem, frig sat in one place for a long time (years).....the legs just happened to fall mid point between joists = 1/4" deflection. No biggie for a frig, not so good for a tank.

 

Then there's the builder issue - varies so much from one to another. Owned a townhouse once - 2x6 framing w/ engineered trusses for joists, likely could have driven a tank onto the floor w/o issue. Friend nearby had owned one & you could see the floor deflect w/ a small crowd Two builders, similar cost, two vastly different builds (of couse the one who built mine went out of business ).

 

And then you never really know what's been done. Next door is selling his house (he was renting it out). He likes to use "white van" labor, cheap as possible. He's replacing the driveway (asphalt with concrete). One guy doing the job - qualifications???? I was watching........yep, he's using rebar.......too bad the rebar is laying on the ground & he's dumping the concrete over it.........functionality????

 

And who among us hasn't been @ HD or Lowes........overheard a conversation & thought - um, ah, even I know you shouldn't be doing that (i.e. see someone picking 14/2 w/ a 20a breaker)

 

As I mentioned I'd be interested in the report - always good to hear from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

 

(of course I should disclose - my tank is on the slab, I wouldn't put in on the 2nd floor )

Edited April 9, 2012 by ErikS

[BowieReefer84]

Bowie - Called Paul, explained the project, and he essentially said it was not a good fit for him. I think he doesn't work on individual, residential type projects, and only works on larger corporate endeavors. He seemed very busy.

 

Dave S.'s guy is available and willing and I have an appointment with him.

 

If anyone else has a referral let me know.

 

 

I guess the economy is coming back. He is a one man show.

 

Sounds like Dave's guy should be able to help you out. Really any civil engineering student out there should be able to run these numbers for you. Just depends if you want a PE stamp or not.

[ErikS]

If anyone else has a referral let me know. I'd still prefer to go with someone who has specific aquarium experience, but maybe that's asking too much.

If you need some names........I haven't used them but they do have ratings.....just send me a pm in you need some more names.

[RubberFrog]

Good discussion so far.

 

Yea I had heard of the 'fat guy on a couch' myth before. Its like the difference between temporary weight vs permanent weight. Big difference.

 

I've estimated the weight of my system to be between 2200-2400 pounds, all told. That would be like eight, 300 pound guys standing in a 5 x 2 foot spot for years.

 

Fortunately the tank has forgiving dimensions, the fact that it's spread out over 5 feet width and 2 feet depth helps spread the weigh impact.

 

But i can't tolerate anything more than 1 or 2 mm of sagging in the floor. I just don't have confidence my tank will retain structural integrity over the long term (especially since it's rimless, and its a GC tank...) if i have an unlevel tank.

Sounds stinky for sure.

[Grav]

Just call the home inspector you used when you bought the house.

 

Any good home inspector given information on the tank size and other details will be able to give you a qualified analysis and he has already seen the place... should be able to help you for free.

[anemone0524]

We worked with a highly regarded home inspector and he was not able to convey anything meaningful to me other than vague generalities. Home Inspectors don't typically like to comment on those types of issues for fear of incurring liability but I was able to get him to tell me what he knew. It boiled down to "I don't think it would be a good idea."

 

Maybe that's the answer. I just know home inspectors aren't the best place to go when you need specific information you can rely on. It's just not their specialty to consider loads, floor capacity, and all the other items that make up the problem. It's an engineering question. Even if he had said 'you'll be fine', that's not very helpful to me.

Edited April 9, 2012 by anemone0524

[firecrackerbob]

I worked in real estate for about 5 years. while there are some good inspectors out there, most are guys with a flashlight, some stationary, a truck, and a sign. Maryland at least has some required certs, but not much... JMHO, if you really want a "pro" opinion, I wouldn't go that route unless they have some other PE cert as well.