thoughts after the meeting

[bcjm]

1. I know many people will hate me to say this but I wish US government will ban all import corals. After hearing Dr. Andrew Bruckner presentation I think it is going to happen sooner or later.  Like exotic parrots, it was banned couple of years ago.  I think there are enough cultured corals to make our tanks nice enough.

 

2. I like to see the club expands the scale of the garage sale and coral frags sale. I saw people bring in nice corals to propagate in the meeting.  I think it can be a nice source of income for the club.  it also benefit a lot of people I believe.  Personally, I really like to buy the frags from the club members.  The frags are healthier, prettier and cheaper than the stores sell.  Part (or all if people want to donate) of the proceeds goes to the club.  

 

Any comments?

Bob

[Sph2sail]

I'll defer on (1) for the moment.  Was a very thought provoking presentation and I'm still thinking about it.

 

Regarding (2), we always schedule time for frag trading, raffles and sales at every meeting.  This really is part of the value of the club.  We always post a thread prior to meetings on frag trading, raffle items and sales availability.

 

Members who set up tanks as displays (e.g., Geofloors) often give the club a small percentage.  It is not required, yet it is desired, as we do provide the environment for the sales to occur.

 

I am not quite sure how to make this more formal, unless we grow more and find ourselves needing a "show floor" like the larger conventions.  Somehow I like it more personal and easier to manage as we have been doing.

 

Can you offer more specific ideas on what you think we could do beyond our current activities?  Remember, we are a non-profit educational society and our objective is not to compete w/local vendors and the like.  That is why vendors DO choose to come occaisionally.

 

Regards,

Steve

[Gatortailale]

My impression was that Andy said we shoud NOT ban the collection and import of corals: mainly the people who collect them are dependent on the work and income.  His point was rather, TEACH them to collect in a method that does not destroy the reefs, use nets to catch fish, and only collect stuff that will survive in aquaria long term.

 

I thought his talk was awesome.  

 

If they want to ban anything, do it on the curio trade.  No need to kill living corals just for skeleton.

 

I agree aquaculture is a great thing to get coral frags.  I have learned that it is enjoyable to take a frag and watch it grow.  Now if we can just teach the collectors proper methods to collect stuff, we will really make a impact.

 

C

[bcjm]

How do collectors make a living before the corals trade was popular?  Banning coral import is inevitable as far as I can see.  I think the proposed solutions is just a beginning right now.  Giving another 5-10 years, there are probably nothing to collect.

[michaelg]

Prior to the coral trade, populations were much smaller, and people likely just survived off land and sea.  I suspect this trade has been going on for a long time.  I agree that the curio trade serves no benefit, and is a good place to start.  Personally, I don't see either as the real threat to the reefs- but that is a whole nother line of discussion.  Works are in progress to make the shift where the islanders value their reefs- a lot more needs to be done though and time is ticking.

[SDBDRZ]

I will start by saying the curio trade should be banned, it is depleting a natural resource by taking something that is alive and killing it.  Not just the curio trade on coral skeletons, but dried puffers, seahorses, etc.  

 

As for banning the importation and collections of wild corals I am sure that over the next 5-10 years things are going to get tighter in some areas.  I doubt if we will ever see a complete ban.  Over the last several years there has been a notable increase in the quality and selection of captive propogated species.  Some have started to take these efforts beyond small scale propogation.  I am not sure that captive propogation is ever going to be the answer because you would need numerous large farming facilities to be able to supply frags in any sizable quantity.  Also, people are impatient by nature.  Only us die hard reefkeepers are interested in buying small frags and watching them grow.  Most people (including myself at times) can not resist buying a beautiful wild collected colony.  People are also notoriously cheap and they will not pay more for a small, captive or aquacultured frag than they can pay for the entire wild collected colony.  Look at clownfish for example.  Places like ORA have been very successful in raising many species of clownfish.  Just about any LFS can get captive clownfish as easily as they can get wild caught yet they still primarily buy wild caught because they are less expensive.  If the buyers walking into the LFS demanded captive reared clownfish the LFS would carry them.  Instead we as hobbiests buy the wild caught clowns because they are cheaper.

 

The real answer could come from aquaculturing.  I am really impressed with the aquaculturing efforts of people like Walt Smith.

[Aquariareview]

I have a question/thought

 

Do we know how much of our coral $$ finds its way to support terror.

 

This is another reason to buy aquacultured coral.

 

Just a thought...

 

This is

[AquariaUSA]

I won't get into the anglo/islamic debate For I am sure there will be enough typos below!

 

I definitely do not think there are enough cultured corals out there, if this were the case, the prices would have bottomed out long ago, and they have only seemed to rise, and attract "clip and ship" operations (those that frag wilds as captive! grr!). Point in case, how many large (really large) operations are there outside of Harbor Branch, etc.? One or two medium sized greenhouses is not really large considering the time it takes to achieve sustainable growout. Imagine if you were growing a basic montipora. You can fit maybe 50 decent 1-2" frags into a 36x18" tank. If you were the top retailer or online seller, how many tanks of this size would you need to keep running weekly, monthly, etc. to support the US demand alone? Then think about how cheap you would have to keep this coral (it is one of the faster growing species) to justify the expenses to grow the specimens. enough of this, kinda off course but relates directly to the idea above!  

 

The mention of wild-caught clowns vs. ORA (or even Proquatixs) is an excellent issue! I really do wish people would demand the LFS and online retailers to leave "Nemo" in the sea and buy his cousin "Misbar." Most of the captive bred/raised fish species are far hardier than those wild caught. The cost difference for us at least is about 4x more than what it would cost us to do wild caught clowns. However, we are tying to do everything we can to avoid the purchase of wild clownfish, and for the past 6-7 months have done so. However, does this justify the LFS or online retailers ordering in fish that DO NOT do well in captivity? Tons of anthias species, moorish idols, hard to feed rare angels, etc. are sold in stores across the country, imagine what the mortality rates are on the fish!!!

 

I doubt that the collection of wild caught corals will cease anytime soon, reason being this has been debated since the early 80s. The major issue that needs to be addressed is CITES and how effective it is in regards to restricting collection. Micheal put up a post a while back about the trade, hopefully many of you read it (I am still reading it due to time) to understand the implications of the trade we have all grown to love. Years ago we watched Florida close its doors to the collection of natural live rock, and especially ricordea florida. Now the trade has blown wide open with maricultured rock, and new sources of ricordea. Companies like Walt Smith International and several others have been doing their part to try and increase responsible collection and farming of wild coral for regrowth, etc. but what about the airliners? I see this as a major problem!!! Most wholesalers ship general freight to save costs, and gain benefits/kickbacks, etc. A few months ago we had a small fish shipment (3 boxes of reef safe "hardy" fish) that got re-routed through an air carrier several times. Ended up in Chicago (the worst place to go IMO) and somehow missed several flights. 24 hours later the shipment arrived after countless phone calls/net checks (in which I should have been on the road visiting clients!) and virtually 75% of the species were DOA. Some of you that know us (me and Flor) would understand how upset we were. We did not have to order the fish that day, or that week for that matter, but each time we do we take a serious chance regarding the lives of net caught fish that were perfectly happy in the ocean. Our running mortality rates on fish (once received from cargo) are generally under 5% per month which is unheard of (from what I have seen, heard, read), but that one shipment alone can drastically elevate that number. I have worked with several retailers over the years and have seen plenty of DOAs, unfortunately. Most owners think about the costs associated with the loss (how much business they may lose), but we should think about the implication this causes the reef (very similar to the curio trade...take alive, and kill). I was seriously contemplating forgoing the purchase of reef fish on a regular basis, unless I found another way to justify "next flight guaranteed" (what they usually ship vital organs on), but knew I could not pass that extra cost onto our customers. Even if we chose to do NFG, it is not guaranteed the orders would even go on the plane (mistakes do and will happen!). This to me is one of the most important things this hobby needs to address, in addition to increasing the effectiveness of CITES and MAC. Captive propagation of corals is another wonderful opportunity to decrease the impact on the wild environment, and should be a major focus of any/and every aquarium society. I think many of you in WAMAS (&CMAS) have done an excellent job here, but what about the LFS? Months ago we read about the hobbyiest trying to sell xenia for credit to buy livestock from the areas retailers. Many of us have been down that road at one time or another! 15 years ago, I remember taking my first batch of 30+ .5" Kribensis cichlids to the LFS, and being laughed at (mind you the health and color of the brood was far better than anything I had ever seen at the LFS). Xenia is very easy to propagate (depending on species) and should be seen in every retailer across the country (perhaps under locally bred Xenia label?) for a modest but reasonable price $15? Not the $30,40, 50, and even 75! I have seen and heard about. Pay the hobbyiest $3-5 per healthy stock, and buy monthly!

 

man it's late!

 

back to the original idea and my opinion/answer:

Education!

Educate the hobbyiests through clubs, magazines, and the LFS. This is the only way we can keep the hobby alive and respectable. The day the LFS and online retailer stops seeing markup on a marine fish or wild coral as an avenue for revenue growth, and that the hobby loses the mentality "try, try again (indefinitely)" is the day we will have succeeded. Andy made an odd, but really important comment that first struck me off guard...but someone asked how we can educate, or who to educate...and his response was "talk to your neighbors!" how many times have you been asked by a friend or neighbor about an aquarium issue because they knew you were really into fish and corals. This is where the education and responsibility begins, with us.

 

On an aquaculture note...although not Fiji or Palau, I would really like to see myself in about 10 years on a small island in Belize or somewhere similar using saltwater from the sea to propagate corals. Trying to convince my wife to spend our retirement money on that island is going to be the key Anyone else want to work a timeshare kinda thing? You stay, you work! hehe

[michaelg]

Nathan- to answer your question-

1. most of the collection in fiji wholesaling goes through WSI- an american based operation.

 

2. Collectors are paid pennies.

3. from talking to Eric- there isn't much coming out of Bali propper, and those who say there is are miss-informed.  Things may have changed since this past summer though... or be routes he is not aware of (though he spent 5 weeks there this past summer).

I highly doubt that much if any $$ is going to significantly support terrorism.  This operation is soooo miniscuel compared to the $$ from the oil industry.

[Aquariareview]

I meant no racial or national disrespect towards any single group with this post (now edited) and if that was taken I apoligize. But I think that we need to keep as much of our $$ here as possible.

I am very pro aquaculture. I am a scuba diver and I have been in the reefs all over the South Pacific. If I have the choice of a $50 coral or a $70 aquacultured coral I will pay the extra. Two reasons:

 

1:Keep the money in the US economy

2:Dont harvest the reef if you dont have too.

[AquariaUSA]

Love #2! Nathan is totally right! Now if we can just get the wholesalers to stop taking Montipora digitata off the reef, we may start winning the battle No sense in taking it off the reef, considering almost 75% of sps hobbyists already have it in their tanks, but you still see it on the lists.

[michaelg]

OK I rechecked my info with Eric.  As it stands now, there is still no collection coming directly from Bali at least not to the extent that it is being hyped.  Not to say that other areas of indonesia aren't exporting corals.  If you are paying extra for a 'bali' coral, you are being mislead most likely.

 

I think we could safely stop taking most montipora directly from the reef.  They are everywhere now.  Lithophyton doesn't need to be bought at a store in this area- I think I may have saturated the market....

 

Michael