Sump Design

[Guest Keyoke]

Ok, so I built a 20L sump, and as Grav and a few others have suggested, I might need to increase the amount of flow going through the thing.

 

Currently, I've got a 90 gallon main tank, with a 1" bulkhead acting as the drain. It's 1" all the way down into my 20L sump, where I've got about 6 inches of space between the right wall of the sump, and the 1st baffle for the bubble trap (3 baffles total, about 1" between all 3). Where the water enters the sump is where I've got my skimmer.

 

Drain has 3 90 degree bends (out the back of the tank, down, return under the stand, down again to the outspout)

 

Returns have 4 90 degree bends (straight up from pump, bend out to back of tank, bend up, bend over the lip, bend down to form a upside-down U, then another bend to spit water into the tank horizontally). I know this is killing my return flow rate.

 

From the baffle section, there's a 12" long space for a fuge, which holds my 300W heater, as well as about a 2" DSB, a few pounds of LR. Another baffle divides the fuge (single baffle, water flows over the top) and down into the return section where there's a pair of Mag pumps (a Mag-5, and Mag-3) with 1/2" returns sending water back up into the tank. The fuge is under about 10" of water, as the two baffles that seperate the intake/return are 10" tall. I'm going to try and reduce this, but since I opted to go with Glass as the baffle material, I fear it's going to be a major undertaking to rectify that little mistake. I fear if I try and cut the glass while it's still in the fuge it'll release little particles of glass into the tank or chew my impellers up..

 

Here's my problem:

 

I want to increase the amount of flow in the tank. Right now, the system seems to be fairly well balanced. I've got the drain wide-open, and I'm barely able to keep the Mags under about 2" of water on the return. I want more flow, but I'm not quite sure how to go about it. With the mags open full-tilt, I'm actually overloading the single overflow, which seems kind of strange. A 1" bulkhead ought to be able to push more water than it is I would think. I'd hate to have to go to a HOB overflow, but I will if i have too.

 

I'm guessing I'm pushing maybe 400gph total, and that seems really low. I'd like to get to the 900 - 1200 ghp range, I just don't see that happening with a 1" drain, and 10" baffles on the fuge.

 

Anyone know if you can silicone under water? or is that just a bad idea.

 

Anyone have any suggestions on how to improve this setup? I'll try and post a pic this evening.

 

-Jeff

[dchild]

Easy trick on the returns it to use 3/4" or even 1" PVC even tho it's only a 1/2 output from the mag - this will greatly reduce the flow lost at elbows.

 

Another thing you might consider it to take one of your pumps and use it in a closed loop configuration - that will increase your flow since closed loops act like there is no head pressure.

 

As far as flow on your drain, do you use a Durso on the back of your tank? I have found the air opening size directly related to flow rate - if you make the hole a little smaller you should increase the flow. Just don't cap it completely or the siphon effect will make an unpleasant noise :P

[Guest Keyoke]

actually, no durso. The tank is drilled in the upper right, there's a standard black cone-strainer type thing coverin the hole. I messed with different configurations for this, 90 degree elbow then strain, no strain, a tee with a loose cap on 1 end, and the elbow, etc.. can't figure out how to make the water go down the thing any faster. The strainer cone thing is completely submerged at this point, I don't know if I change that so there's some air going thru there would speed things up or not.

 

I might upgrade to the 3/4" returns, or maybe even go to flex tubing instead of PVC.. curves are nicer to flow than bends are.. I also thoght about 45 degree bends instead of 90's where I could get away with it.. I'm really more concerned about the drain than anything else at this point. If I can get more water into the sump, I can always upgrade pumps to get it back out...

[Tom]

Hi jeff,

 

Could you post a pic for your sump? I am in the process of building one myself. Not sure which one to go? 20L or 20H? Since 20H will give me more room under the cabinet for other electrical stuff.

 

Thanks,

 

--Tom

[ErikS]

IMHO you're on the right track - low water over the pumps tells me that they're doing just fine & that the drain is just barely keeping up. A 1" drain should be able to do 600gph. A mag5 & a mag3 might be close to that number.

 

I would try the external Durso, even though air is getting in through the strainer it might not be enough & the dain might be able to do a bit more if it weren't doing double duty as a drain & air source.

[Guest Keyoke]

Is there some sort of matrix or something that shows what various pipes sizes can do for GPH? How much 90 and 45 (street) elbows reduce flow, etc?

 

And by external durso, how would I do that? Tee the bulkhead?

 

 

[ErikS]

ASCII art in HTML sucks

Apparently not - looks pretty clear to me, but then I'm old & fossilized - I go back to the days of ASCII/Hex pinup art

 

Yep, you got it. That's an external Durso. Over @ ReefCentral there is a pipe flow calculator. Enter a number you wish to achieve & it will tell you the pipe size.

[xeon]

With the 1" bulkhead, the most flow you can hope for is 600gph on the overflow. I've seen a chart before, but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember the 1" though, since that is what I was looking for and have. Your 90's reduce this number a slight amount. The loss of a MAG3 and 5 at around 3-4 feet is pretty close to 600gph, so you are on the hairy edge.

 

The only way to get more flow through there is to either add another bulkhead, install a larger bulkhead/s(drill) or use an external overflow. The durso is a good idea, but I think it primarily reduces noise. If you use a durso, you might also want an internal overflow box to help you with water level control. You might even think about building a new sump that fits exactly what you want while you are at it.

 

Trying to silicone under water wouldn't work too well either.

[HowardofNOVA]

Jeff,

Dave is right on the money!

 

You are MAXED out on outflow right now if I reading this right!

 

The recommended MAG12 that I mentioned in your other post will overflow your tank in seconds....This voids my previous recommendations!

:D

A Mag12 will push about 1000-1200gph inflow and with the 1" Bulkhead allowing about 600gph, well you do the math....er cleaning up!

 

 

If it's not too late and you have the option, I would put another 1" Bulkhead into your system, actually I have 3 and LOVE THEM for redundancy as you mentioned and the old fashion backup! TRT can do these for you in Fairfax.

 

If that is totally too much for you, then you might look an overflow box option?

Sorry, not much else that I could recommend. You can put a ton of PH in your tank for circulation, but for getting more water in the sump..aka...Skimmer, you will need to get it from the tank to the sump.

Howard

[HowardofNOVA]

Here's another option:

http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquarium...low%20rate'

[Guest Keyoke]

Here's another option:

http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquarium...low%20rate'

30380[/snapback]

 

Hah! If the wife would let me swap the tank out, I'd be more'n happy to do so.. I'd get a bigger tank if I could. Wives are such a PITA sometimes... but w/o her I'd have to take care of the kids (among other things!) myself, and that's just too much work.

 

Looks like I'm going for a HOB overflow box. I can't afford a tank teardown so I can take it to TRT and get another 2 or 3 holes drilled, as much as I'd like to, I don't have anywhere to store what I've got.. :(

 

Ah well. In another 2 years or so I should be ready for that massive in-wall tank, which I'll be sure to do right this time.

 

-j

[dchild]

I use one of these $15 PVC Overflow

 

Mine is half of that design with 1 1/4 PVC and it handles a Mag 7 (sez 450 gph at 4ft). I think if you did it with 1 1/2 PVC or did a double with 1 1/4 you would have no trouble pushing your flow higher.

[Guest Keyoke]

I use one of these $15 PVC Overflow

 

Mine is half of that design with 1 1/4 PVC and it handles a Mag 7 (sez 450 gph at 4ft).  I think if you did it with 1 1/2 PVC or did a double with 1 1/4 you would have no trouble pushing your flow higher.

30387[/snapback]

 

Interesting design. I think I recall seeing something like this once before.. I might give it a whack, see how much water I can get onto the floor. How's the siphon restart after a power outage?

 

Looking at 'tbone' and that other dude, 'devomd@hotmail.com' or whatever he uses to sign his sigs with, with that big standpipe used to keep noise down..

 

got a pic?

[xeon]

Jeff, you could also attempt to drill the tank where she sits. A tank of your size with thicker glass is somewhat safer to drill (as opposed to say a 10 or 20g)... something to think about.

[Guest Keyoke]

Hi jeff,

 

Could you post a pic for your sump?  I am in the process of building one myself. Not sure which one to go? 20L or 20H? Since 20H will give me more room under the cabinet for other electrical stuff. 

 

Thanks,

 

--Tom

30348[/snapback]

 

I can't get a very good pic of the sump, it's suck up real well under the stand... However here's a basic diagram;

 

Wow, brushing off ASCII Art Skillz twice in 1 day! I feel almost like a SysOp again! Where's my copy of TheDraw when I need it?

                  20G Long Sump. Approximately 12x12 Fuge section
    |   | |   |    Baffle Lengths:                                       |   |
    |   | |   |             10" High between Fuge and return             |   |
    |   | |   |             10" High for last baffle before fuge         |   |
    |   | |   |              6" High for two rightmost baffles           |   |
    |   | |   |                                                    |F|| ||   |
    |   | |   |                                                    |R|| ||   |
    |   | |   |                                                    |O||T|| O |
    |   | |   |                                                    |M||O|| V |
    |   | |   |                                                    | || || E |
----| R |-| R |----------------------------------------------------|S||S|| R |--
|   | E | | E |                                                |   |K||K|| F | |
|   | T | | T |                                                |   |I||I|| W | |
|   | U | | U |                                                |   |M||M|| L | |
|   | R | | R |                            Bubble Trapping     |   |M||M|| O | |
|   | N | | N |   |                             Baffles     |  |   |E||E|| W | |
|   |   | |   |   |                              ---------> |  |   |R||R||   | |
|   | # | | # |   |                                         |  |  || || ||   | |
|   | 1 | | 2 |   |                                         |  |  || || ||   | |
|   |___| |___|   |                                         |  |  || || ||___| |
|                 |              Refugium Section           |     || || |      |
|  Water Return   |                                         |     ||_||_|      |
|    Section      |                                         |     |            |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           Basic Sump / Refugium

 

Hah. I actually did use 'theDraw' for that one.. found a copy, fired up a DOS virtual PC on my Mac, and went to town. Man I forget how much fun BBS screen design was with that app. So simple.. elegant even.

 

Ugh. someone find me a life. Please. I spent 20 minutes doing an ASCII rendition of a sump, and another 10 minutes getting it to show up properly (no <pre></pre> tags allowed) in a forum message.. I should have just fired up photoshop...

 

-j

[dchild]

got  a pic?

30393[/snapback]

 

UM... It is sort of sandwiched in between the wall and my tank, and a side view doesn't explain anything... it's actually very simple.

 

here's what it looks like inside the tank (you can see the powerhead with a venturi which goes to the check valve on top of the overflow)

 

 

and from the top

 

 

I made some adjustments b/c I understand how it works and I wanted a different look. You don't have to restart the siphon after an outage - I've tested it many times. You just make sure the siphon never breaks by ensuring the highest opening in the tank is lower than the pipe which leads down to the sump. Than way, the siphon halts (equal water levels) before you can suck air in. You definitely want the powerhead pulling any stray air bubbles out of the pipe though.

[Guest Keyoke]

Jeff, you could also attempt to drill the tank where she sits.  A tank of your size with thicker glass is somewhat safer to drill (as opposed to say a 10 or 20g)... something to think about.

30404[/snapback]

 

Drill a filled tank? Isn't that asking for trouble? I'd be afraid of glass dust entering the water, small shards and whatnot peppering any livestock after being shot out of a pump, or impeller damage... maybe if I drained it a bit, and built some sort of cloth catch or screening mechansim...

 

The stress of the water against the glass wouldn't make it more likely to crack?

[xeon]

There is a guy on Reefcentral who drilled his 20g that he just lowered the water level in. Other people have done the same thing, especially after his saga unrolled. The people with bigger tanks and thicker glass are much more safe... but it does take longer. Since you are grinding, you end up with glass dust, which should not be problematic. You could devise something to catch the dust if you wanted though.

 

FWIW, I think the guy lives in Winchester, I offered to give him some frags, live sand and etc. when he was starting out. If you could get your hands on 1 3/4" diamond hole saw, that would be ideal.

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=234382

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...threadid=445481