Accuracy of Salifert test kits (quality control issues found)

[YBeNormal]

For those of us concerned about the accuracy of newer Salifert kits, here is a recent post from ReefCentral by Habib, owner/CEO of Salifert:

 

Important information on two batches of Alkalinity kits A very limited number of the KH/Alk kit reagent KH have very likely been contaminated in such a way that it would give a high false value.

 

Each batch consists of several thousands of bottles and the best possible estimate is that only 10 - 50 bottles out of a batch of several thousand have been contaminated.

 

So only a very, very small number of reagents (but yes, even one is too many )

 

The two batches very likely affected are:

 

1106-C and 1106-F , the batch number can be found on the label of the large KH reagent bottle.

 

Most of the contaminated 1106-C were, luckily, already returned before even getting to the end user, very recently.

 

I also think that most of the contaminated 1106-F have now been located.

 

 

The nature of the contamination would be such that a limited number of bottles as a group would be contaminated untill the contamination would be exhausted.

 

This also shows that there was or is NO batch related issue, that is a whole batch being bad.

 

 

We have taken measures so that this, very difficult to find cause, can not happen again.

 

 

To give you an indication, we received a total of approx 45 requests for replacements in the past period. This demonstrates, also given that Reefcentral is a very large board, that the number of contaminated reagents is indeed very, very small.

 

 

Besides that the number of 45 requests also is in part from people who were unsure and since we did not have the information we have right now we did also honor their request.

 

 

I will now have also more time to concentrate on some other questions such as some differences between different good batches/good reagents. Most of them can be explained by the accuracy and precision and the value range used for calibration. However, I'll start tomorrow another thread about this last paragraph.

 

 

Please allow me to give you all a very big thumbs up because most if not all of you were and are very polite, very patient, did help me further by answering questions, did try to think together with us and came with many suggestions. I'm very, very proud to have you as a customer!

 

Thanks!

 

 

I and many others feel that the contamination issue affects more test kits than Habib believes or is willing to admit. Regardless, Salifert is now admitting that they did have quality control issues that affected at least some kits from these batch numbers. If you have one of these kits and are seeing strange readings, post your issues in the Salifert sponsor forum on RC and request a replacement kit.

[treesprite]

thanks for the info Bob

[dhoch]

Bob,

 

I know belive I had the same thing, BUT I'm not convinced it was a faulty test kit.... I have reason to belive the new style drippers are not as accurate when the bottles get lower....

 

(In the begining I was testing close to an older Salifert test kit, but in the last 2 weeks I compared again and I was of by 2.0 dkH (pretty signifigant)... I noticed that the amount blue fluid that was coming out seemed much smaller in the new test kit than the old, also did a change of the blue bottles vs the other, and guess what it was consistant with the blue bottle.

 

That's not to say they have a problem, but it may be more than just reagents.

 

Dave (who now has 4 Alk test kits )

[ArtC]

I think we have 40 bad Salifert kits just between WAMAS and CMAS.

 

At BRK, I learned that a couple of members with much more experience than I do suffered coral losses because they were maintaining their tanks according to incorrect test results. So the problem isn't easy to spot.

 

So if you have one of the mentioned test kits - ASSUME IT IS BAD UNTIL YOU PROVE OTHERWISE!

[dhoch]

At BRK, I learned that a couple of members with much more experience than I do suffered coral losses because they were maintaining their tanks according to incorrect test results. So the problem isn't easy to spot.

 

THis is why it's important to look closely at your tank and inhabitants (it's what tipped me off and made me get another test kit for comparision.

 

Do NOT RELY ON TEST KITS ALONE!

 

Dave

[jnguyen4007]

Bob,

 

my alk kit batch number is not in the range of those listed. yet, when you and i compared the result between ours, mine came up higher. should i contact habib as well?

[flowerseller]

How are any of us going to know which test kit is actually acurate?

 

LaMotte

Hatch

Salifert

Seatest

Seachem

 

When asked about test kits, any of the well know or even experienced reefers on our board or most other boards said SALIFERT, hands down. Then Salifert has an issue and expert A runs like crazy saying they'll never use them again and that brand X is the best and Salifert sucks.

 

What if expert A gave you advise on doing something to your tank and you had a problem from taking that advise? Does expert A then suck?

 

I have no idea what the status of contaminated test kits is but I do know this, you can successfully maintain and aquarium with both high and even LOW ALK levels. What you can't successfully do is make that change rapidly.

I also know that two guys/gals can use the same kit and get two different readings and this is the case for any test kits I mentioned above and any I didn't.

 

I watched the 3 different kit test off at a brk social recently and I would have stopped at different color changes and continued at others than the tester did. Doesn't mean I'm right, doesn't mean he was wrong, just means it was different color point.

Unfortunately, that does make a difference in the reading.

 

So, how will YOU know which test kit is giving the correct reading?

Will it be because expert A said so?

because RC said so?

because the manufacturer said so?

The guy at the fish shop said so, or maybe because the question was answered correctly on "Cash Cab"?

 

When those of you that thought you had a problem, got a new test kit and got a different reading, why did you decide that the new reading ( or test kit) was correct? What if it just so happen to be one of the "bad" Salifert kit?

 

So from several high profile masters having problems lately, I can deduce that test kits have been bad forever. High profiers have been having these same problems for as long as I can remember over 20 some years.

[dhoch]

Again... DONT RELY ON TEST KITS!!!

 

Look at your tank, know what a healthy coral looks like, know what a stressed coral looks like.

 

I like test kits because I think stable parameters are important, BUT I also know when my corals/animals are looking stressed and I start to look for problems at that point...

 

Dave

[flowerseller]

At the same token, know what a healthy coral looks like over the course of days because they can look totally different, or :(

[lanman]

Again... DONT RELY ON TEST KITS!!!

 

Look at your tank, know what a healthy coral looks like, know what a stressed coral looks like.

 

I like test kits because I think stable parameters are important, BUT I also know when my corals/animals are looking stressed and I start to look for problems at that point...

 

Dave

 

One problem with this, Dave - once you decide your corals are looking stressed; what's the first thing you're going to do? Grab your test kits and try to determine why...

 

bob

[dhoch]

Well yes that is what I do.... if everything looks good test kit wise though the next question is why...

 

I will typically do an independent test (other test kit, and/or other person + their test kit).

 

Dave

[YBeNormal]

Bob,

 

my alk kit batch number is not in the range of those listed. yet, when you and i compared the result between ours, mine came up higher. should i contact habib as well?

 

James,

 

I would keep the one you have. The stated accuracy of Salifert Alk test kits is +/- .3dKh. If mine happens to read .3dKh low and yours happens to read.3dKh high, that accounts for .6dkh of the difference. The remaining .3 or .4dKh could be due to differences in how you and I conducted the tests, the new dropper or something else other than the chemicals themselves. Then again, your test kit may be perfectly accurate and mine might actually be low. Without a known reference solution, we'll never know which one is right. Stability is sometimes more important than actual readings though and 1dKh is not going to make that big of a difference.

 

P.S. Habib also confirmed that new Alk test kits will include a reference sample (6.5dKh I believe). Even if the reference solution is exactly 6.5dKh, the stated +/- .3dKh accuracy of Salifert test kits could easily result in readings of 6.2 to 6.8dKh.

 

 

Bob,

 

I know belive I had the same thing, BUT I'm not convinced it was a faulty test kit.... I have reason to belive the new style drippers are not as accurate when the bottles get lower....

 

This might account for part of the issue in your specific case, but there definately was a quality control problem at Salifert that is causing some test kits to read 3 or more dKh high.

 

A lot of people are complaining about the new drippers. Hopefully Habib will listen and go back to the old style that we also hated (but not as much) or maybe try a yet another different style bottle.

[dandy7200]

 

 

 

So, how will YOU know which test kit is giving the correct reading?

Will it be because expert A said so?

because RC said so?

because the manufacturer said so?

The guy at the fish shop said so, or maybe because the question was answered correctly on "Cash Cab"?

 

 

 

I'm going with Cash Cab!

 

Seriously Chip, I know you have been reading your alk test wrong from our conversation last week. Habibs color change definition is weak at best without a color comparison chart (which he will start including in the kit).

 

I also agree with some others that we need to be looking at the animal in the tank as much as the test kits regardless of which one we use. I also think that the reefers with more experience here need to step up and be the ones who identify the obvious problems to the newb who may have no idea why his corals are RTNing from the base and everything "appears" to be OK according to the test kit (low alk stress).

 

I lost a few nice pieces over the last 3 months before identifying the problem. This is not a easy one to spot. I have been vocal about this problem in order to try and warn others to "measure twice and cut once" for the past month.

 

I can and will forgive Salifert. Everyone makes mistakes. They are finally standing up and admitting to the problem and taking actions to correct the problems. The corals I lost can be easily regained since they are spread through this club. I have however found through this that I actually like the Lamotte alk test kit better than Salifert and wont be switching back.

[YBeNormal]

Chip,

 

I have not implied that all Salifert test kits or even all of their Alk test kits are bad or inaccurate. I and others have been stating for several months that there is a problem with some of them and Habib has now admitted that to be true. I have some personal issues with the way this was handled by Salifert, but that is purely my opinion and not really something to debate in this thread.

 

All of the comparisons I did were Salifert vs Salifert and there were huge differences between some of the test kits so I felt pretty comfortable in saying that one or more of them were bad. I then tested new but aged SW and figured out which one(s) came closest to the value I would have expected. Those tests led me to believe that the older test kits I have are at least reasonably close to accurate and that the problem was with the newer ones.

 

Two of the tests conducted at BRK were with Salifert test kits and both were conducted by the same person, stopping at roughly the same color on the test. The difference between the test results was 3 dKh. The higher one was well outside the expected range so the conclusion was that it was incorrect. The batch number of the chemical was one of the ones listed in Habib's note, so that confirms the test kit to be bad. Now, the other Salifert test kit could also be off...

 

I still think Salifert test kits are the easiest to use and most cost effective test kits on the market for the stated level of accuracy. The fact that the user community expects that level of accuracy to be true is not a bad thing IMHO.

[dhoch]

I too will stick to salifert... I also used the lamont, but the expense/test is way out of wack for the amount that I test... I will keep the one, and use it on ocassion, but I can't see it being my everyday test kit.

 

I also got a tunze test kit... haven't even opened it yet, but I'm curious.

 

Dave

[flowerseller]

 

I'm going with Cash Cab!

 

Seriously Chip, I know you have been reading your alk test wrong from our conversation last week. Habibs color change definition is weak at best without a color comparison chart (which he will start including in the kit).

 

I seem to remember the conversation that we both stopped at the same point.

I also recall saying during this conversation and in other threads that the last color in the RC thread could amount to one titration drop. Like you, I frequently do the low resolution test you have suggested but with this issue, it may work against us.

Having only seen the color chart on a monitor, I liken it to the one included in the LaMotte kit only one extra sample before any reagent drops.

 

Bob,

My only question is how are we going to know which kit to believe?

I'm with you and remain glad Salifert did not jump to conclusions which could make it worse.

 

I have a two Salifert ALK test kits from 01/07 and feel it's accurate.

 

If I felt I had an issue with a false reading, I too would check but REGARDLESS, I would not make any drastic changes quickly.

I also tend to run my ALK higher than the average so if I actually test low, it's not likely to be too low.

[dandy7200]

1/2 test? Not I. I did those with the Ca test when checking saturated kalkwasser but always do the full for alk. The Lamotte kits are refillable and the refills are comparable pricewise to Salifert. The starter kits are clearly worth the money since every component is obviously made to a much higher quality than Salifert, this is lab grade stuff. The laminated color indicator is a nice touch too since there is no need to calibrate your monitor to compare a color change.

 

Lamotte also has a website.

 

http://www.lamotte.com/

 

They specialize in water testing. They have someone who answers the phone (I called). They have been around since 1919. You can reprint instructions if you get yours wet. Added bonus is they are located in Chestertown, MD so they are local as well.

 

Guess who is a fan of these guys? BTW, my tank is back to normal and I am contemplating switching back to 20k bulbs to slow down the growth

[flowerseller]

1/2 test? Not I. I did those with the Ca test when checking saturated kalkwasser but always do the full for alk.

 

Oh , could have been a good one for Cash Cab.

[dandy7200]

Oh , could have been a good one for Cash Cab.

 

You got me there Chip. Still that was measuring alk from effluent of a calcium....uhhmmm...alkalinity reactor though so now you gotta give me a ride to MACNA

 

That was a good thread, hard to believe it was a year ago exactly.........

[flowerseller]

I started using the 1/2 test from that thread since it seemed like a good idea. I still do weekly and do a full once a month or so.

[YBeNormal]

Bob,

My only question is how are we going to know which kit to believe?

I'm with you and remain glad Salifert did not jump to conclusions which could make it worse.

 

I have a two Salifert ALK test kits from 01/07 and feel it's accurate.

In regards to which test kit to believe, I offer the following:

 

Back when I used to use API test kits and had a BW tank, my nitrates jumped from 30ppm to 100ppm. I went into panic mode and did lots of 50% water changes, cleaned the substrate, everything possible to bring the nitrates down. I finally remembered that I had another API nitrate test kit in the house. I tested with the other kit and found the nitrates to be ~10ppm. Most people would be happy at this point. Me? I had two test kits of the same brand with one measuring 100ppm and the other measuring 10ppm. My fish were acting like 10ppm is correct but I like to be sure--so I bought a third test kit of the same brand but from a different batch and it also measured 10ppm. Fish were looking good and two out of three test kits said 10ppm, so I went with the odds and third test kit was relegated to recycle bin. No different with the Salifert test kits, one has been tossed.

 

{on soapbox}

I have to disagree with your opinion about Salifert not jumping to conclusions though. I look at this from two perspectives. One is that Salifert had a momentary lapse in quality assurance and the other is that Salifert is trying to hide from the facts to cover their a$$. OK, there is a third perspective, that Salifert had a momentary lapse in QA and Habib is trying to cover his a$$.

 

I understand that Salifert had a QA issue once before, that they admitted the issue and issued a full recall as any company should under the same scenario. I think Habib has made a grave mistake in the way he has handled this most recent situation though and the formerly stellar reputation of Salifert will suffer as a result.

 

After several weeks of absolute silence (Habib being MIA and non responsive) and two+ months of testing, Habib has finally admitted that there was a contamination issue that affected reagents from batch #1106. He states (paraphrased) that only the first few (10-50) bottles from this batch would have picked up the contamination (how was this determined?) and the issue would have gradually disappeared as subsequent bottles were filled from this batch. Never mind that no one knows if they have one of the kits that is totally hosed by this contamination or one that is still contaminated but not quite as bad as the first ones--we are supposed to believe this crap and blindly hope that ours is not one of the one affected. We should also keep in mind that most reefers would not know if they have a bad test kit or not, blindly taking action to lower their Alk and wondering why their coral isn't doing so well...

 

If Goodyear identified a contamination issue with a batch of rubber used in tire manufacturing (or condoms?), Mattel identified a lead issue with some toys from a particular batch or Hershey found melamine in a small sample from a batch of chocolate--we would expect a public notice to be issued and for each of these batches of products to be recalled. Why should Salifert be any different? Some of us (disclaimer: not me) have thousands of dollars invested in the coral in our reef tanks and for most of us, Alk is a very important parameter that we use to determine the health and stability of our systems.

 

Personally, I think Salifert should issue a blanket recall for all test kits using reagents from batches 1106 and any others that are questionable. This is obviously not going to happen though and Salifert is losing a lot of loyal customers--not to mention their formally stellar reputation. Habib has chosen to ignore the fact that these reports have come from all over the world, that many of these people have reported loss of corals and that many of the reports are coming from folks that have been using Salifert test kits for many years.

 

I will continue using Salifert test kits but I will also question the results and rely on logs, appearance of corals and other external measures to validate the results of any test using these kits.

 

Bottom line? I think Salifert had a momentary lapse in QA and Habib is trying to cover his a$$.

{off soapbox}

 

P.S. I still have not received the promised replacement Alk test kit from Salifert. I'm sure it's in the mail though...

[treesprite]

Is it only the alk test that has the problem?

[flowerseller]

Boy I sure hate to offer anything about that.

[treesprite]

well, last week I ordered a Salifert nitrate test which I'm waiting for....

[YBeNormal]

Most reports of issues have involved Alk and Ca test kits. A few people have reported wierd readings with Mg and other test kits but from what I can tell most of these were truly narrowed down to user errors.

 

P.S. Chip and I talked today and we are actually in general agreement about the whole Salifert accuracy issue. Just in case anyone was wondering...