Brian's 120 Mixed Reef, 120 Aggressive

[Brian Ward]

Hey Brian, I'm sorry to hear about your disaster in your tank. I would look into other conditions as well, other than simply going with the assumption that it's ich. I have never (knock on wood) had to deal with marine velvet, but I seem to recall that the description is somewhat similar to what you are describing. Maybe it's brooklynella? Same thing, though, no experiences with it (knock on wood). I don't suppose you still have the dead angel? It might be worthwhile to scrape it and take a look at it under a microscope to see what you can find.

 

I'll be back at school on Thursday and I have a 1000x microscope that we can use to take a look at the tissue samplings if you have any. I don't know what I'm looking for, but I'm sure we can figure it out.

 

I read descriptions of the various diseases but could never completely settle on one. The spots on the rabbitfish were easy to see and early on you could see the spots on the angel's fins. I think the angel and the rabbitfish are both in the trash at the moment, the trigger is somewhere in the tank though I haven't found it. I think the damsels are eating it since they don't seem to be as interested in pellet food as they normally are. I'm planning to let the tank sit for a while but if you think it's beneficial to diagnose the disease, then I'll retrieve the fish (assuming a cat hasn't got into it). I actually had my girlfriend take them out of the tank - I was so tired from trying to treat them and disheartened when they didn't make it, I just didn't want to deal with it.

[keeperofthefish]

Brian--Very sorry to hear about your fish. You should have given me a call... As a note of caution, if you used cupramine in the tank you're intending to use for SPS when you used it as a hospital tank, it may no longer be okay to keep coral in. Coral do not respond well to even leftover traces of cupramine or other non-reef safe treatments. Check with others on the board to see what they think.

 

If you're not planning to QT your fish, you at the very least need to run a serious U/V filter on your tank to give fish a fighting chance when you introduce new protozoans, etc. with new livestock. Talk to Johnny at BRK about appropriate wattage for your size tank. I had a bad ich outbreak when I failed to QT a fish some time ago and U/V plus heavy feeding with garlic seemed to do the trick. I would STRONGLY recommend setting up a QT and I can give you details on what you'll need for that. I now QT religiously, which is a pain because it means no impulse purchases and having to setup and breakdown a QT. But it also means healthy fish.

 

I think we can all sympathize with what you went through. This hobby has a very steep learning curve and it occasionally stings everyone no matter what level they are at. Patience is toughest to exercise when you're looking at an empty tank, but nothing feels worse than losing a fish, so you have to learn it. Some people get lucky and most do not.

[davelin315]

I have used tanks that had cupramine in them. I don't believe that the cupramine is absorbed by the silicone in the tank, but I could be wrong.

[Brian Ward]

Definitely have never heard that the copper/cupramine cannot be cleaned out of the tank. I thought silicone was non-reactive and I'm sure the glass doesn't absorb it. I specifically did not treat in the tank with the rock and sand as I did not want to contaminate that. If that's true I'm going to be very disappointed.

 

I hadn't set up a QT yet as I've been trusting the QT practices of my supplier store - typically Scales which I've never had a problem with. I bought the rabbitfish from BRK - that's the only stock I've purchased outside of Scales and I think that's where the Ich came in. I don't blame them just as I don't think Scales is incapable of selling a sick fish.

 

I've definitely thought of getting a UV but haven't done it yet. Likely will add that in shortly - maybe a christmas present from the rents. I'm also going to set up a QT when I come across a used sale that sounds like it will work. Probably something around a 75 in order to accommodate some of the bigger fish. Sam, I'll definitely get with you to see exactly what I need to buy/acquire. If you can, I'd also like you to help me out with drilling a CL - I think I need 6 holes.

 

I definitely did not get lucky on this one. Specifically, I feel like I let tygger down since I was trying to give that angel a good home.

 

Oh, and unbelievably the trigger is actually still alive. I went looking for the body today to remove it from the tank and found him "locked" into the underside of a rock. When I touched his tail he moved his side fins rapidly in an effort to stay where he was and there was definite movement of the gills.

[keeperofthefish]

I could be 100% wrong on the copper issue with a tank, but do make sure you ask others on the board about it. I had heard that before, but perhaps it was in relation to live rock and live sand and not the actual tank...

 

The main reason to QT is to give the fish a rest after the trauma of being transported to your house. The move weakens their immune system, as does their stress of being introduced to a new tank with fish already in it. This causes the outbreak. Many believe that a system does not exist without some amount of ich or other parasites in it. These things are able to take place when the fish are stressed. You want to get them eating and fat before you introduce them to a tank with other fish so that they can fight off all the nasties. With as much as we spend on our setups and livestock, it just makes sense to do this. Also, although Scales QTs, some types of parasites don't even appear for 60 days. I doubt they QT for that long.

 

Also, you need to make sure you're treating for the correct illness. Kick Ich doesn't work, and copper really is shock therapy that will kill all but the hardiest of fish, especially when they've already been suffering from the illness. The best treatment for almost all topical/skin diseases is hyposalinity. When doing this, however, you have to adjust gradually and make sure to buffer and track pH. It is a pain to get a sick fish and much easier to deal with when it's just one fish in QT. To avoid future frustration, this is my honest advice. I'm not trying to be a jerk or a know-it-all. I'm just saying that I've been through this also and learned the hard way.

[Brian Ward]

I could be 100% wrong on the copper issue with a tank, but do make sure you ask others on the board about it. I had heard that before, but perhaps it was in relation to live rock and live sand and not the actual tank...

 

The main reason to QT is to give the fish a rest after the trauma of being transported to your house. The move weakens their immune system, as does their stress of being introduced to a new tank with fish already in it. This causes the outbreak. Many believe that a system does not exist without some amount of ich or other parasites in it. These things are able to take place when the fish are stressed. You want to get them eating and fat before you introduce them to a tank with other fish so that they can fight off all the nasties. With as much as we spend on our setups and livestock, it just makes sense to do this. Also, although Scales QTs, some types of parasites don't even appear for 60 days. I doubt they QT for that long.

 

Also, you need to make sure you're treating for the correct illness. Kick Ich doesn't work, and copper really is shock therapy that will kill all but the hardiest of fish, especially when they've already been suffering from the illness. The best treatment for almost all topical/skin diseases is hyposalinity. When doing this, however, you have to adjust gradually and make sure to buffer and track pH. It is a pain to get a sick fish and much easier to deal with when it's just one fish in QT. To avoid future frustration, this is my honest advice. I'm not trying to be a jerk or a know-it-all. I'm just saying that I've been through this also and learned the hard way.

 

Advice is well-taken. I understand all that you have said and will adjust my procedures accordingly. I'm going to keep an eye out for a tank to use for QT. I've been treating with hypo and monitoring pH and buffering as necessary. I'll keep the tank in hypo for another month of so. I'm looking for a UV to install on the tank and likely another one for the QT. I should be able to recover, just taking the hard knocks.

[tygger]

Brian,

 

I'm sorry for your loss... in this hobby, that's one of the unfortunate circumstances that we all must learn to accept. It's sad, but this post is evident that you really tried and the angel didn't die from negligence.

 

Good luck in getting your tank back in shape.

 

Chak

[YBeNormal]

Brian,

 

You don't need to bust the budget looking for a tank to use for QT. You can QT in a $5 plastic storage container from HD or Lowes. Add aeration, some form of filtration, heating, maybe some large PVC fittings for hiding places and do frequent water changes and you are all set up.

[jason the filter freak]

Brian,

 

You don't need to bust the budget looking for a tank to use for QT. You can QT in a $5 plastic storage container from HD or Lowes. Add aeration, some form of filtration, heating, maybe some large PVC fittings for hiding places and do frequent water changes and you are all set up.

 

Agreed, here. Also if you're really going to do a qt tank 75 is a bit over doing it. I'm not trying to tell you how to run things but you should be fine something closer to a 40 breeder in terms of space and budget. Or even go with a rubbermaid stock bin, or like bob was saying just a storage container, though they've been known to split over very long time usage.

 

As for Cuppramine. I have no experience we're just starting to use the stuff at work... though if you belive this or not we're using it to try and kill the little black snails you get in freshwater set ups... I'm thinking there's got to be a better way.

 

How ever what I have had exp with is Quick Cure (Malachite Green + formalin) which does not in fact contain copper but is very readily absorbed into silicone and after many washes does not come out.

 

Good luck, and sorry about your loss.

[keeperofthefish]

Glad to hear you're getting things back on track. I would agree with my illustrious fishkeeping colleagues that a 40 breeder or even a plastic container of about 40 gallons or so would be great for QT. I have successfully used a 20 gallon (long dimension to maximize surface area for air exchange) for fish as large as a pyramid butterfly. The key was lots of water changes. I filled the tank halfway to begin with using water from my main tank. This is great because it gets the fish exposed to what is in your tank already and aged saltwater from a live system is much gentler on fish. A terrific way to do the QT is, once you have your tank up and running, keep a sponge in the sump at all times, or a cartridge filter. Then you're always ready for a new fish, should one catch your eye. The Penguin Biowheel filters are the preferred type for QTs because they maximize aeration and do a good job with colonizing bacteria.

 

Again, among the best aquarists I know, they don't view QT as a cure-all time to medicate the H-E-double hocky sticks out of their fish. They view it as a time to get them strong and healthy enough to add them to their system. With one fish isolated like that, you can make sure they get plenty to eat to build up their immune system. The sad fact is that not all fish are going to make it. The stress of transport is too much for some, and others were injured on collection and holding. This is a great way to see exactly how healthy they are before you add them to your system.

 

A disease outbreak is enough to drive even the most dedicated into despair and out of the hobby. QT is the ONLY way to truly insure against it.

 

By the way, I'm picking up my 120 gallon Oceanic tech this weekend. Going to start a build thread on it.

[Brian Ward]

Right now I have 2 QTs set up. 1 is the 120 hospital tank I used previously, the other is the 29 I'll be using as a frag tank in the SPS system. I bought a biowheel for the 29 and used some water from my established biocube to get it started. I'm working the salinity down slowly to minimize killing the bacteria - hopefully down to 1.010 from 1.026 this evening. The 120 is at 1.010sg with a 1.5" Christmas Island Imperator Angel (supposedly. still juvenile coloring so can't tell at this point) and a 3" Golden Butterfly (semilarvatus, red sea http://www.marinecenter.com/fish/butterfly...utterflyredsea) in holding. These came from Roozens so the Imperator had a mild case of ich (of course), but the butterfly is in good shape. After 5 days or so, the spots on the Imperator have greatly decreased. I would expect them to be completely gone within the next week.

Angel is eating very well and very active in the tank.

I saw the butterfly eat formula gel cube before purchase. I first supplied some cyclopeeze, nori, and crushed formula cube (all sparingly) and she didn't seem interested. The next day I acquired some live brine and while she wasn't interested at first she eventually ate quite a few of those. The next day I added a couple whole formula cubes and let them sit on the bottom. The angel picked away. The butterfly noticed them and seemed to stalk the cubes for a while but never hit them. The next afternoon, the cubes were gone (except for some fragments on the bottom of the tank) and she was no longer interested in the live brine. I'm assuming she ate. Behavior is good, as is coloration (color becomes much more vibrant after the lights are turned on) she is very active and no signs of disease. Appears to be missing a scale on her left side, but that has been there since purchase. I would expect it to heal.

I'll be holding these fish in hypo until mid-January and then begin increasing to a sg of 1.020. At that point they should be ready for introduction to the main tank. The 2 damsels in that tank are doing fine. I'm still keeping it in hypo until mid-January to be sure that any parasites don't survive.

Edited December 21, 2007 by Brian Ward

[Brian Ward]

MODS - please move to "dedicated tank forum" and change title to "Brian's 120 SPS Reef, 120 Aggressive, and BC29 Thread"

[Brian Ward]

All QT fish are doing well. Daily water changes are required to keep the ammonia levels down. Anyone know how to cultivate the bacteria colonies? Can the bacteria survive at 14ppt salinity? I'll probably try to pick up a HOB skimmer shortly for it and I'll start running the 8W UV I just picked up.

 

The diamond goby jumped yesterday morning unfortunately. I checked on the fish around 4:30am and all were fine. By 9:00 he had jumped. He must have really wanted out since I cut eggcrate to top the tank and then covered that with a box and a bucket. Very little open eggcrate space left and he managed to find his way out :( The citron gobies should be ready to add to the BC29 tonight. They'll need 8 hours of dripping, so I'll get them started when I get home from work.

Only a few more weeks and I'll try adding 1 of the other fish to the big tank. I need to rework my rockscaping as well.

[davelin315]

Hey Brian, just toss a sponge filter in there. The bacteria will survive as they an adapt very readily. Something that helps is to keep it dark (which a quarantine should be regardless, in my opinion, at least dim) and to boost the temperature a bit. The latter poses a problem with dissolved oxygen as it lowers the amount, but warmer water will also help the fish to heal a bit better unless it's a temperate species, at least from what I've been told.

[Brian Ward]

Hey Brian, just toss a sponge filter in there. The bacteria will survive as they an adapt very readily. Something that helps is to keep it dark (which a quarantine should be regardless, in my opinion, at least dim) and to boost the temperature a bit. The latter poses a problem with dissolved oxygen as it lowers the amount, but warmer water will also help the fish to heal a bit better unless it's a temperate species, at least from what I've been told.

 

 

 

I seeded the tank with some water from my BC29 and I have a biowheel running on it (with a filter pad and a media chamber with carbon and phosban). If I just toss in the sponge from my BC for a couple days will that do the trick? The BC29 is running at 1.026 and the QT at 1.011. Do I need to acclimate the sponge? What about tossing in a few pieces of rock? I'm not running any copper or other chemicals so I wouldn't expect leaching to be a problem. Maybe some rubble in the biowheel chamber? I'll add some more water from the BC tonight when I do the water change, just have to bring the salinity down to match before pouring it in.

 

As far as light, there is rarely any light around the tank, no light has been suggested before and as I recall, Scales keeps all of their QT tanks dark. It's on the floor in my basement with no light on it. The only light that gets in is the room lights a couple hours each night - and even then it stays pretty dark since the lights I turn on aren't above the tank.

[Brian Ward]

Everything in QT is doing great. I also added an orange-spot rabbitfish to the mix from a member on here. All are very happy and healthy and it appears that my biological filtration has finally caught up with the load since I'm testing 0 ammonia every day and don't have to do the daily water changes. I think I'll move the larger fish - the rabbitfish and semilavartus butterfly to the display tank next weekend. These are also the most docile of the planned stock so it'll be good to allow them to establish their territory.

 

I do need some help either this weekend or next weekend. I'm planning to drill the 120 SPS tank for my closed loop. I'm going to try to stop by BRK Saturday morning and pick up the bulkheads and drill bits. I don't have any experience drilling glass so someone that's done that before would be preferrable. Mostly I need help carrying the tank up out of the basement to drill and then back into the basement when we're done.

The plan is to drill for 2 2" drain holes and 4 1" returns. Hopefully this isn't too much?

 

Once I have the drilling done I'll be able to build the couple of shelves I need and begin arranging my sumps and connecting the plumbing.

[Brian Ward]

Time for a picture update:

 

 

 

Here's a link to the complete album:

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/brward5/FishAndCoralPics

 

 

 

BC29 FTS:

 

 

 

 

Right Side:

 

 

 

 

Left Side:

 

 

 

 

Added a 8W Gamma UV to the return path. Upgraded the pump to a MJ1200 to push the extra distance:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also added a canister filter to run carbon and phosphate media in:

 

 

 

 

Plumbing:

 

 

 

 

Current FTS FOWLR:

 

 

 

 

SPS-dominated build progress. Both luminarcs hung, back drilled, electric about 50% done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fish in QT. Moving to the FOWLR shortly. The citron gobies are for the BC29.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Ward]

I've moved all the fish from QT to the 120 upstairs. All are eating well and the initial nipping from the damsels has stopped. The blue hippo and flame angel have been grazing on the algea on the back wall of the tank and on the rocks. It's decreasing noticeably every day! Hopefully after they decimate that they'll find the nori sheets.

 

The blue hippo is so much fun to watch. He's a tiny little fish right now - about 1"-2". Being in the 120 with lots of open space, designed for much larger fish he just has fun playing in the current.

 

The flame is still a bit shy. Grazes on the rocks and back of the tank but mostly stays in amongst the rocks only coming out as he moves between crevices.

 

The rabbitfish eats like a pig. He's going through 1-1.5 sheets of nori a day and anytime the formula cubes hit the water he chows down on those too usually consuming a whole cube on his own. Loves mysis as well. He's looking fat and happy though, very active. I got him from modelrr - I've seen this a few times, a fish is sold as a orange-spot rabbitfish (as the LFS did to him) but is actually a gold-spot. This one is definitely a gold-spot, you can tell from the pictures above with the dark spot behind his head, just above his pectoral fins as opposed to the orange spot that is near the tail on the orange spot rabbitfish. No worries though, I like him just the same - and he's now my girlfriend's favorite fish. She love breaking off nori pieces to hand feed him. Don't worry, she knows he's venomous and her hands never go in the tank.

 

The semilavartus is still eating well and swimming well and I constantly get comments about him. Very beautiful fish.

QUESTION HERE: But I'm seeing some faint white spots in the clear part of his fins :( There was also a small white mass on his body behind the right pectoral fin and a similar one on the left side top center of the body just below the dorsal. The one on his side has since disappeared - I've been watching very closely every day - and there is still some minor scale damage from when I purchased him. He did come from Roozen's after all. I'm thinking I'll have to try and catch him and move back to QT for hypo. Any other thoughts or ideas? With no behavioral problems - no hyperactivity, no sluggishness, not tending to stay at the top or bottom of the tank and is even slightly aggressive toward the rabbitfish from time to time staring him down nose to nose - or decreased appetite, he's eating formula cubes just like always and even picks at the nori (this species doesn't typically have herbivorous tendancies). Should I still worry? Should I put him through the stress of catching and moving? Or just continue to watch and move if it gets worse?

 

NEXT QUESTION: The water appears cloudy. This has been a problem since I initially set the tank up. However, while the tank was sitting virutally empty (only the 2 damsels) the water eventually became perfectly clear. Since I've moved the fish up from QT, the water has become cloudy again. I initially attributed this to high alk levels? The tank was previously established and had a ton of corraline algea on the back and overflow. This died and turned white, beginning to slough off after I got it filled again. None of this white encrusing material (I'd assume calcium carbonate) appears to be present anymore. And like I said, the water previously became VERY clear. Last time I checked, alk was still a bit high - about 12.5 dKH. If someone has some ideas I can run tests this afternoon to give you whatever parameters would be helpful.

 

I'm holding off on any more stocking for a while to make sure these fish remain healthy and make sure the tank is stable. Next things to stock are probably the powder blue tang and the purple tang - definitely need things stabilized to keep them healthy.

 

If anyone has any ideas on these last 2 questions, PLEASE let me know. I don't want to lose any more fish and I definitely want the water to clear!

[Brian Ward]

Update on a couple of things:

FOWLR tank is doing well though there is ich in the tank. I'm pulling the salinity of the tank down to treat the whole tank in hypo for 8 weeks and hopefully that will clear it up. The fish in there are showing the tell-tale spots but none are showing any behavioral symptoms so I'm not sure that I should worry.

The majestic angel I added to the tank was looking much much worse than the others and did begin showing behavioral signs of disease. I don't think this one has ich. Or maybe it has ich with something else, but it was beginning to take on the look that my queen angel had before she died. The supposition is marine velvet so I moved the angel back to QT and I'm treating with copper (Cupramine). Here are a couple shots of this tank:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the SPS reef I'm building in the basement I've finally got something complete! I got the actinic lights hung and the closed loop plumbed. Water is in for leak-testing the closed loop. The filtration loop is next and I'm trying to decide whether to use one of the sumps I have or to have Dan build something for me. I already know I'm going to use his skimmer, media reactor, kalk reactor and calcium reactor so it's probably only a drop in the bucket to have him build something else but it's still a decision.

The main thing I'm contemplating is how to get a sump and a fuge into the space I have with all the other equipment. I have some ideas but nothing is concrete yet. Here some pictures of this one:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll get a pic of the whole thing with lights on tonight.

[jason the filter freak]

The angels look great! That closed loop looks great, how the vibration though?

[Brian Ward]

The angels look great! That closed loop looks great, how the vibration though?

 

 

 

Vibration isn't too bad. I can feel some vibration on the glass of the tank. This should go away once there is sand and rock in the tank to absorb it. Pump vibration is almost non existant. This pump (a barracuda) actually sounds quieter than the Dart I have on my other tank.

[Brian Ward]

And finally an update....

 

Finished the basic plumbing and construction. Leak tested with tap water. Drained and now I'm refilling with saltwater.

 

I know pics are what everyone wants so I will not disappoint.

 

Full shot. Water is filling direct from the RO/DI. I mixed all the water I already had made up, put that in the tank and then added some more salt and just ran the tube direct from the RO system to fill it while I sleep. The closed loop is currently running to keep everything moving and mix the salt that didn't have time to dissolve.

 

 

Sump/Fuge. All the components I'll have can run externally so no need for a true sump. Back section will hold filter socks, center section will be my fuge. Return pump is in the back. I'll probably cut the vertical member to add another Tee and feed the chiller and UV loop.

 

 

Closed loop pump with OM 4-way

 

 

Manifold off the return pump to feed media reactor, skimmer and calcium reactor.

 

[Highland Reefer]

Brian,

 

It looks great. You've done some impressive construction there. Luv your fish.

[CHUBAKAH]

Been a while. Do you have any updates, and or pics?

[Brian Ward]

yea, ive been way too busy this summer. I'll get some new pics soon. The FOWLR is overrun with hair algae, but the SPS reef is looking great. Just need to aquascape and probably add some sand - that'll be a pain, but I'll get it done. More detailed update later ....