Lionfish selection and compatability

[SnowHeart]

Hello all. For several months I have been researching the prospect of switching from freshwater to saltwater. After a move back down to DC this September, I'm going to make the plunge, buy a 90g and convert my 29g into a sump/refugium. There are two things I would like to do: have some live rock and have a lionfish. Given those parameters, there are two things I was hoping folks could offer some advice with: what type of lionfish would go well in a 90g (48x18) tank with live rock, and what else would be compatable with it?

 

I think I should rule out the volitans. At a maximum length of 15", the tank will only be slightly more than 3 times its length and that just doesn't seem fair to me no matter what the "minimum size" requirements are. This is particularly true once you factor in the addition of live rock, which will reduce the available swimming space further. I also am not interested in the dwarf species (just personal preference).

 

So, that leaves me with the more medium sized builds: radiata, antennata and russelli. Does anyone have suggestions as to what would probably be the best choice for a beginner (or none of them)? Assuming one of these is acceptable, what would be compatable with it? I understand that snowflake eels are good tankmates for lionfish, but I also understand that butterfly fish should be okay. Is that true? I know butterflys are not reef compatible, but are they okay with live rock?

 

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[jason the filter freak]

Glad to see you're doing the research required of this hobby. Welcome (back) to the area. I hope you'll join wamas. Good luck with the 90, I'd say just watch the size requirements and rember they'll eat pretty much anything they can fit in their mouths, and somethings they can't (which may result in death of both creatures)

[fab]

Some people will offer that pretty much anything that comes from an ocean reef is not reef compatible or reef safe. The critters have to eat something and pretty much everything they eat comes from the reef. On the other hand, the optimists offer that, by definition, everything that comes from an ocean reef is reef compatible.

 

So I guess it depends on your personal philosophy as to whether critters that come from ocean reefs are reef compatible or not.

 

Personally, I believe that the issue of whether a critter is reef safe has more to do with what level of risk do you tolerate putting your valuable specimens in. We put a lot of stuff in our tanks, each of which will spend a lot of energy trying to stake out its own homeplate chemically or that will nibble at its neighbors mechanically, or harrass behaviorally. Ultimately, whether these critters are suitable in a reef tank has to do with how much space [separation from each other] the tank provides versus the needs of the individual critters and how tolerant the aquarist is of having his critters dine on each other at $$$ per plate.

 

Certainly, live rock is safe enough in the presence of virtually anything you might want to put into your tank that orginally calls ocean reefs home. That is mainly because live rock is cheap and rather expendible, relative to expensive coral specimens. If a fish likes to make sand out of live rock, I really don't care very much. It is just another interesting behavior to watch. But then, I am an optimist and think that everything is reef safe, maybe not reef tank wise, but certainly reef safe.

 

 

fab

[SnowHeart]

Welcome (back) to the area.

Thanks, Jason!

I hope you'll join wamas.

Submitted $20 by PayPal earlier today.

Good luck with the 90, I'd say just watch the size requirements and rember they'll eat pretty much anything they can fit in their mouths, and somethings they can't (which may result in death of both creatures)

Yup, that's what I'm worried about. I'd like to have some variety of life in there so, in that respect, I think a medium-sized lion is also a better choice (less potential "food") but still a challenge to stock.

[treesprite]

Hi Snowheart

 

it's good that you're doing research before jumping in. I had very little in the way of information sources/resources when I first started salt, so sadly, I made a lot of beginner mistakes, and even more sadly, a whole lot of other people are making every day.

 

WAMAS is great - I encourage you to join, maybe go to the symposium this weekend.

[SnowHeart]

Personally, I believe that the issue of whether a critter is reef safe has more to do with what level of risk do you tolerate putting your valuable specimens in... Ultimately, whether these critters are suitable in a reef tank has to do with how much space [separation from each other] the tank provides versus the needs of the individual critters and how tolerant the aquarist is of having his critters dine on each other at $$$ per plate.

Yes, I think that's exactly it. In that sense, "Reef safe" is probably a poor use of words, but does seem to be the operative phrase. So, let's say I'm not wild about the idea of letting my fish have $50 dinners.

Certainly, live rock is safe enough in the presence of virtually anything you might want to put into your tank that orginally calls ocean reefs home. That is mainly because live rock is cheap and rather expendible, relative to expensive coral specimens. If a fish likes to make sand out of live rock, I really don't care very much. It is just another interesting behavior to watch.

My take on that is that yes, the butterfly fish would be safe for a FOWLR tank. Thanks fab! It's appreciated.

[davelin315]

Lionfish are very sedentary by their nature and really don't do a whole lot of swimming, but more hanging out and waiting for food to stumble on them. That said, I don't see a problem with you getting a volitans if you wanted one, a 90 is plenty of room. My own personal preference is for a black volitans or a radiata lion as I don't feel the others have that lionfish look, but they are all fun (I had a lionfish tank before, what a cool site that was).

[dschflier]

I have had niger triggers with lionfish and had no problems. The trigger is faster so you do have to direct your feeding a bit, but it worked fine for me. I agree I think most butterfly fish are fine. I always loved panther groupers but they grow really large. I would also be curious of what people think about putting a bat fish with the lion fish. Those are my ideas.

[fab]

Lionfish are really interesting creatures in nature. I've dived where there is a school of them permanently ensconced next to a tall coral spire just off the southeast tip of the Sinai penninsular. They just float around about 10-15 feet below the surface in a group of about 10-12, all big fellas. It looks like a flight of helicopters. They slowly move around and encircle a school of small fish. Then a few of them make passes 'down the middle' snatching hors d'oeuvres and returning to their position in the flight. Never is there a chase. They just slowly, almost hovering, slide around the area as a though they are flying in formation. They can consume a large bait ball over a period of half an hour or so, never really zooming around in a hurry.

 

It is really quite a sight to encounter. I've found this same school in the same place a month apart, doing the same thing the same way.

 

I've always loved these guys. They are elegant and seem to be rather detached from the bustle of the reef, almost blase'. They are really laid back.

 

fab

[dhoch]

Ok I thought I would chime in.

 

To the first question, yes a full grown volitanslion can be 15" but rarely have I seen one that big in captivity (even in aquariums where they have that much room to grow), but they should be allowed to get to 10-12". Being sedentary for the most part, I'm not sure that a 90 will be a big deal for a voliton, but it's your choice. A russelli is also a great choice and I also thing the dark (bordering on black) volitans don't get quite as big as the redder variety, but that is mostly anecdotal.

 

That being said companions.

 

Sounds like you are not planning a reef which WOULD make a butterfly a possibility...there are lots of good choices, but many butterflies can be difficult to keep long term.

 

I would stay away from most triggers (they tend to be Lion fin nippers, not all, but some).

 

Snowflakes (or other enchinata eels i.e. chain link) would be a good choice, but I would start with a small one, and they are escape artists (I like eels a lot).

 

Other than that you are going to want things that will NOT fit in the lions mouth... bigger the lion, the more things that will fit in it's mouth.... and you have to think about what you want the overall load of the tank to be..

 

Dave

[davelin315]

The black volitans seems to grow in a different way than the red volitans. I have had both and the red seem to get "stubby" as they grow, meaning their fins get shorter and more compact and they, to me, get ugly. The black volitans seem to grow and maintain the proportions that make them so gracefully elegant - their fins remain longer and they appear much more delicate, even when they get larger. I had a black volitans that grew very large. It was in a 37 gallon tank and it actually grew to the size of the tank itself when the fins were spread out completely, stretching from fin point to fin point (side to side, not nose to tail) all the way across the tank. I ended up moving it out of that tank, but it was happy in there.

 

That said, however, the other inhabitants that lived with it while it grew were not. I had a small niger in there with it as it grew and because they wanted the same food, the lion would often feel threatened and it actually spiked it. Same as a small fiji puffer. My tank was definitely too small to mix them together. Dave is also right about the fact that some triggers will actively go after the lionfish and nip off all of its fins and then kill it. I would avoid butterflies and other fish like a batfish or a panther grouper for the simple fact that they present large targets. With a lionfish that may hide upside down under a ledge and then be spooked when a fish comes around the corner, such large flat bodied fish may end up spiked by the lion.

 

My suggestion, which is far more entertaining by the way, is to put some damsels in there. Put in an assortment of damsels which can really give you a splash of color, such as some yellowtail blue damsels, some 3 stripes, and maybe a couple more, and these will give you lively movement in your tank from all of the inhabitants. The damsels are very fast and adept at hiding (I'd give them some coral heads that they can hide in that the lionfish cannot get into) and the lion will constantly be hunting them if you have enough of them so it'll be going back and forth from coral head to coral head. The damsels will also not get spiked by the lion as they are far smarter than that and you'll have an interesting tank! I had a lionfish in my first tank and I had 2 3 stripe damsels and 2 yellow tail blue damsels. The tank was a 55 and the lion would go back and forth from side to side trying to eat the damsels, but they would come out, taunt the lion, and then zip away when he came for dinner.

 

As far as an eel with the lion, I have also done that. The only problem that I see you encountering is during feeding time. An eel has very poor eyesight and so one of two things could happen, neither of which happened to me. The eel could swim right into the lion and get spiked when it's chasing after food, or the lion could have some food in its mouth and the eel could grab it and pull the lion into the rockwork, tearing it apart as its such a poor swimmer. I would be careful of doing this combination of fish. The eels also might look like a good food source when they just have their heads sticking out, so that might also pose a problem with fish that are not very smart (eels and lionfish).

 

One suggestion on a lionfish, by the way, get it trained early on to eat dry food. My last one ate not only whatever live and frozen offerings I had, but also flake and floating food sticks. It was the easiest fish to take care of and because of the diverse food offerings, it grew like mad and was incredible to see.

[bigJPDC]

awesome post davelin - thanks! You make me want to try an FOWLR build.

[SnowHeart]

Thanks for the input all; this is VERY helpful and informative. I really appreciate it.

[toastiireefs]

i really want a lion fish but im not going to get one till im older and have tons and tons of tanks!!

haha -

 

but one things for sure! DONT FEED IT LIVE FROGS!! as a video on youtube shows thats not the best idea

 

have fun with your lionfish!!! i think they are gorgeous

[Grav]

I have had luck with Fuzzy Dwarf lions in a mixed reef with larger but passive fish.

 

Firefish and gobies and small blennys are out, but it is a lion and really opens up the possibilities as far as other fish. Plus, the smaller size = less waste so coral are an option down the road.